Armed with Reason: The Podcast - Episode 15
Author, documentarian, and gun violence survivor, Oronde McClain, discusses his mission to bring more attention to survivors
This week we’re joined by author, documentarian, and gun violence survivor, Oronde McClain, for a fascinating discussion of his amazing work with The Philadelphia Center for Gun Violence Reporting, and their goal to help the media develop more empathetic habits when reporting on gun violence and survivors.
You can listen to the chat via our channel on Spotify as well as watch on YouTube, or read the transcription below.
We hope you’ll tune in and let us know not only what you think, but what you’d like to hear more about in the future. And if you are interested in recommending a guest, or even being one yourself, please let us know!
Given the abundance of gun violence in our country, it is critical to have the ability to discuss and advocate for a safer community. This podcast is one more way for the movement to do just that.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION:
Caitlin: Hello, everyone. Thanks for joining us here on the Armed With Reason podcast, brought to you by GVPedia. When we began this podcast last summer -- it's hard to believe it's been that long so far -- one of the main motivators of starting the podcast was to give survivors of gun violence a space to share their stories and the work that they are involved in. So this week, Devin and I are very grateful to have Oronde McClain here on the podcast with us. Oronde is a gun violence survivor and advocate, motivational speaker, media consultant, and a mentor. He has dedicated the past 20 years of his life to supporting victims and working with the media to advance accurate and empathetic reporting on gun violence incidents. Oronde is the award winning author of the book, PTSD Won't Define Me, and a co-producer of the documentary, “They Don't Care About Us” or Do They? And he's been featured in the Philadelphia Inquirer, Daily News, and WHY for his gun violence advocacy efforts, and has built trusted relationships with many of Philadelphia's journalists. So first, Oronde, we'd like to thank you for joining us here today. Finding some time in your busy schedule to chat with us. And welcome to the podcast.
Oronde: Well, no no. Thank you. The pleasure's all mine.
Caitlin: And just to start off, we'd like to give you some time. If you just want to tell us a little bit about what brought you into the work that you're doing.
Oronde: Okay. So the work I've been doing, well, it's not like a work. It's like my my life path. So, April 3rd, I got shot in the back of the head. And it really, like, changed my life. I was in a coma for seven and a half weeks. I had to learn how to walk, talk all over again. I used to be right-handed, now I'm left-handed. And when I woke up out the coma, I was speaking Latin. And I never spoke Latin a day in my life. And if you asked me today one word about Latin, I would know nothing about it. And you know, it was like a hard change because I was ten when I got shot, and it was in a great neighborhood, and so it was like shocking to Philadelphia. I moved from a bad neighborhood to a good neighborhood. Like, for instance, I had I didn't have no trees on my block, and I moved to my area had trees on my block -- total shock. And then I get shot in the head. And there's horror, you know. I tried to commit suicide over 22 times. And the last time I was like, you know what? I'm here for a reason. God brought me back for one purpose and one purpose only, and it was trying to change survivors' lives. Because we don't get the, how can I say, the glory and the... Not to say the glory. We don't get the recognized, the recognition that we deserve. Like for instance, somebody gets shot, right? And they die. You get a balloon release. City pays for your funeral. Every year you get a memory. But survivors -- you get shot, they fix you up, and they kick you out the hospital. They say, Hey, you're normal again. But what is normal? Survivors, we don't know what normal is. We belong to this club that we don't want to be a part of. But we have to be. So that's my story in a nutshell.
Caitlin: Yes. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. Obviously, it's very personal and the trauma of being a victim, and then, as you mentioned, a survivor and leaving the hospital and being expected just to go back to normal life really doesn't make any sense. There's there's no reason that would be the path that you would take. Of course, there are struggles that you would have afterwards. So we appreciate you bringing light to that here on the podcast. We tend to focus on, or maybe the media tends to focus on the number of deaths that we have related to shootings. We had Jennifer Mascia from the trace on a couple of weeks ago, and that was one thing that she was talking about. But we also we might see just a number, right? Two or four or 10 or, you know, unfortunately, last week in Kansas City at the parade, 22 people injured. But their their journey, their challenges are just starting.
Oronde: Yeah.
Caitlin: So, when we met, initially, Devin and I were at the Center for American Progress Conference in Washington, DC, and Oronde was there presenting on the media and the media's influence and involvement with gun violence victims, survivors, their families within the community, and definitely opened our eyes up to some things that I certainly hadn't necessarily thought of. You know, for instance, the loved ones of somebody who's been shot, finding out that that individual's been shot through the media, which is just really, really mind-boggling. So we know that you are doing important work at the Philadelphia Center for Gun Violence Reporting (PCGVR). Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Give us some insight into what they focus on there?
Oronde: Yeah. So, it's three programs. And one of the programs that I got involved in was the Credible Messenger program. They actually give you a voice. They pair you up with a credible messenger, no I mean, I'm sorry, a journalist, a professional partner, usually a journalist, a reporter. And I didn't have no experience at all. I didn't know what a documentary was, like how to put one together. I was teamed up with Sherry Gregg. I just wanted to explore the media, explore, the city, you know, and they taught me how to do a documentary. What to say when, not to say, the terms of the media. Like, for example, off the record, on the record, you know, stuff like that. And we produced a documentary called “They Don't Care About Us.” And it was wonderful. I interviewed survivors, politicians, because I wanted to know why nobody care about survivors. Nobody. Nobody cared about survivors. And then when I was going along, going along, politicians, doctors, psychiatrists. I found out later on their brother got shot. Their uncles got shot. Sisters got shot. That's why they in this position of power because they want to change it. So I was like, oh man, I felt like a fool. But the documentary went great. Now I'm the newsroom liason for PCGVR. So I'm kicking down doors, Channel 3, Channel 6, Channel 10; and trying to change the narrative of the newsroom. Because awful reporting is really, really bad. Don't don't get me wrong. The reporters, they have a job to do. It is not always their fault because they have a job to do. If a story on they desk, they have to go cover it. They just don't, they just don't know how awful it is. Seven reporters knocking on a mother's door, and they just lost somebody. So we're trying to change the narrative on how to approach a survivor, how to approach a co-victim. And we're doing excellent work. You discussed the research going on with Dr. Beard. Like the Credible Messengers. And now, I just accepted, I'm a Stoneleigh Fellow. So now I got this big project that I'm doing. PCGVR is my company also. So we're doing a directory of the City of Philadelphia. Right. I got journalists, and I got survivors. I'm bringing them together. Vecause, for example, like, a couple weeks ago, a journalist called me and say, Hey Oronde, a three-year-old just got shot. And I said, okay, well this is in another part of town. Can you go with me or can you tell me about it? Like, what do you mean, how how can I, I can't help you with that. And it's bringing me back to all the tramas and triggers that I have. So now we're teaching survivors how to be Credible Messengers. So we're creating the app and a website so journalists will have, so say, for instance, it was in KNA because it's in Allegheny, they were have six or seven Credible Messengers they can call. They don't have to call me. So that's what we're doing so far. And we're training them also. And we're training journalists how to talk to survivors. So, that's what we're doing so far.
Caitlin: And that makes a lot of sense, right? Journalists certainly have a job to do, but there's also a code of ethics that you have to prescribe to as a as a journalist. So that's really important for them to keep in mind. It's not just about getting the story, it's about the people that you're telling the stories about.
Oronde: And and it's like, well, you got this amazing story, right? Oh my God, you're number one. You got the amazing story. But what about the follow up? You don't have no follow up story. So as the audience, I got this guy that got shot, but we don't know what happened to him because there's no follow-up stories. You said he was in critical condition for two weeks, we want to know what happened to the person. There's no follow-up story and nothing like that. So we're trying to push that. And it's working also, like we're seeing results.
Devin: And I'd kind of like to jump in here on a couple of the points you've raised. And one is kind of about the lack of care, as it were, for people who have survived gunshots. Most often the focus is on those who have died, and there will be the media attention on those instances. For example, the definition of mass shootings, the Gun Violence Archive treats them as four or more people shot. Recognizing that oftentimes the difference between life and death is a matter of millimeters. But some of the pushback to that is like, Oh, we should only focus on cases where four or more are killed. And to me, that erases the victims of injuries who have all this trauma going forward, whose lives have been upended. And it's just like, Oh, they were just injured. They'll be fine. And it's just kind of gross negligence in a way on the part of some. And it also appears on the data side as well. For example, like, we do have firm figures from the CDC of how many people are killed from guns every year. We still do not have a firm figure for how many people are shot by guns each year. They come from just a survey of a handful of hospitals, and then they extrapolate. And with all the resources, you'd think you'd be able to figure out how many people are actually shot, where, and to help provide the resources there. But even at the data level, there seems to be a systematic uncaring of people who are survivors. And I kind of want to tie that into an overarching question of what are some of the biggest, harmful practices that you see in media coverage? And on the flip side, what are some of the improvements that you've seen recently with what you've been doing?
Oronde: Okay. That's a great question. So the bad stuff we see, harmful, white sheets, yellow tape, blood, and all the images that you see on the news can be triggering to somebody like myself or other survivors. Stuff that you see where they keep showing the suspect, or the killer, or they say the person that was 31, but he was really 18. Stuff like that. Good stuff that we see. Like, for instance, one of the news stations, it had a bad image and a bad video. PCGVR, we called, and they erased it. So they listening to us. It's like, okay, we see what y'all doing, we see what y'all about. Let's erase that. And they erased it.
Devin: I was just going to say that's very good that they're listening. It seems to be that it's more born out of ignorance. And like a journalist's job, particularly in the modern media market, is to get, like, clicks on the page. And sometimes the drive to do that just overwhelms everything else. And it's good that they're realizing that like, oh, I shouldn't be doing these certain practices.
Oronde: And they listen. They listening to us, they're talking to us. They letting us in their newsroom. What survivor you know are going to newsrooms trying to change the narrative? What company? Like, PCGVR has really put in the work in newsrooms.
Caitlin: You mentioned the Stoneleigh Foundation in your early on. So I just wanted to give you an opportunity to share with our listeners about the Stoneleigh Foundation, the work that they do, the work you're doing with them. I don't know all that much about them, so certainly interested to learn more as well.
Oronde: So the Stoneleigh Foundation. They have a couple Fellows, and one of them was myself. And they're doing gun violence prevention. And my project got picked. So like I said, yeah. So I said earlier is I'm doing a directory in Philadelphia, and they're sponsoring that for the next two years. I'm putting journalists and survivors together so they can learn from one another and learn how to talk to one another. And we're having classes. The first class will be March 18th. And we'll be paying survivors like for their time. Because, you know, a lot of people don't do that, they don't give them no stipend or anything like that. And we're giving them an opportunity to speak to journalists to see what's going on, how they can work on each other. And you have a lot of Credible Messengers in areas. So, for example, say if you were in journalism, you'd be like, Oh, I have something going on on this block -- rather than you rushing to the person's house, you got four or five Credible Messengers that you can call and see what's going on.
Caitlin: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Having sort of a buffer between the journalist and somebody who may not want to speak to them, may be grieving, whatever the situation is. I think that's really brilliant. And whenever you're done with that directory, feel free to pass it along to us. And, you know, if we can be of we can be of any assistance getting it out to folks to, we're always happy to help.
Oronde: We was, we was just in Washington, right?
Caitlin: Yes.
Oronde: We were just at NBC 4 talking about it.
Caitlin: Oh, okay.
Oronde: We was at NBC 4, and we have a new documentary called The Second Trauma where I interview, you know, people that lost loved ones, survivors. And they really tell the media, Y'all need to stop what y'all doing and focus on us. And it's really amazing. And we're going to colleges, we going to different cities on it. It was really, really phenomenal.
Devin: Yeah. So one of the things that I'd like to touch on, you mentioned your mentoring work, and I'm really interested in that, particularly how you've been in the past mentoring teens who have been arrested. And one of the common lines from pro-gun advocates tends to be lumping all gun violence that occurs in cities, such as Philadelphia, and I do hesitate to use these terms -- and if you're not watching the video, I'm using air quotes here -- but "gang violence" or even "the work of thugs," with the implication that those lives that are being lost or altered forever are worth less than other people who live elsewhere. And this is even used to throw doubt on guns being the number one killer of children and teens. I've seen in so many social media commentaries where they're like, oh yes, but that includes these gang bangers from cities, and therefore those shouldn't count towards the statistic. Which is, I mean, to me just galling. But I was wondering if you could talk about your experience during the mentoring work and how that may challenge those talking points that so often come up.
Oronde: Okay, sure, yeah, that's a great question. And this don't have nothing to do with PCGVR. This was with the McClain Foundation. We was mentoring teenagers that had gun charges. And, you know, people are people. Humans are humans. And that's another thing, for reporting, harmful language, thugs. And, you know, people are still people. You have to sit down with the person and let them know what's going on. Because especially teenagers, I had a couple of teenagers. They was just carrying guns because they want to protect themselves. Because they saw they father get killed. They saw they best friends get killed. So we have to sit down and figure out what actually is the issue. That's just that's just my opinion. And I don't label anybody. I call everybody by the first name. So, you know, if we started doing that, I think the violence will go down.
Caitlin: Would you say, I know you mentioned that there was an instance where a photo was put up and it was triggering to victims. You asked for it to be taken down, and it was taken down, which is obviously progress. But would you say when you meet with journalists, a majority of them are interested at changing their vocabulary. If they're using words that they shouldn't, or they're interested in the feedback, or is there some hesitation there in the field?
Oronde: Like I said, we all humans, everybody's going to step back a little bit, but we making progress. People are really interested of what they have to say. I've been in every newsroom. Nobody's given me a push back. They listen, I don't know if they're going to use it all the time, but they able to listen. So I think that's progress. Nobody said, No, you know what? I don't want to do that. I'm gonna just keep doing what I'm doing. No, I don't think it's like that. People are seeing progress. So they say, Hey, okay, we're going to make a change. Their change might say, Okay, we're not going to call them victims, we'll call them survivors. But a small change will work.
Devin: Yeah. And I'll be interested to see kind of how as your program expands, because I find it hard to believe that it won't expand, because it seems like such an obvious win-win for both for survivors to get their stories out and for the media to properly cover these instances, and have on-call experts, basically, who are willing to walk them through instances. Like, I definitely see that expanding across the country. And I'll be interested to see whether there's how much of a regional difference there might be. I'm based in Oklahoma, and our news coverage, as one might expect, is not the greatest on these issues, and whether there might be more pushback from, like, honestly, deep red conservative states who are very much entrenched in a certain narrative versus areas that are definitely more willing to listen and be empathetic toward survivors.
Oronde: Yeah, it's it's going to change. But you guys, you really still got to be honest with my company. Like we need the funding as well. So if the funding stops, there won't be no change. But I think everybody, like when gun violence hit home, it's going to change, I mean, it's going to change. I have hope for the future. I think it's hitting home, especially in Philadelphia. It's going to change. And when people see, like the Second Trauma and other cities that we go talk about and talk to, like the young kids, the young college kids, it's going to change.
Caitlin: Yes, they certainly are the future. Since you mentioned the financial piece, we wanted to ask you how our listeners can find your work; and if they'd like to support your efforts, is there any way for them to do that?
Oronde: Oh, yeah. PCGVR.org. It's a donate button on the home page, and that's PCGVR.org. Or you can find me, that's Oronde McClain on Facebook, Instagram, and I could point them to PCGVR.
Caitlin: Perfect. Yeah, when we when we share this post out on our Substack and on social media, we'll make sure to include all of those, all those links for everyone.
Devin: One kind of final question to wrap up. You mentioned colleges are, well, previously you had mentioned going to like already established journalists, so I was curious whether there have been efforts to go into like journalism classes.
Oronde: Oh yeah. So I've been at Temple journalism classes. We just left, uh forgive me, I forgot the name. It was in Washington. I forgot the name of it. They gonna kill me, but we in journalism schools.
Caitlin: And set the expectation early, right? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Oronde: And I can send y'all the trailer for The Second Trauma and see how you like it.
Caitlin: Oh, yes. Yes, absolutely. We would love to get that out to folks, too. So thank you again for joining us here today. Any last thoughts that you have that you would like to leave with us?
Oronde: No. Everybody just, you know, if you see a survivor or a co-victim, give him a hug for me. Yeah. Just be kind to each other, you know? That's what it is. And I think the world forgot about that.
Caitlin: Yes, that's. Put that on a bumper sticker. That's very true. Well, again, we we are so grateful for you coming on here and sharing your personal story about your struggles, not only with your injury from the shooting, but your mental health struggles afterwards. You know, your your bravery and your hard work does not go unnoticed. And I am absolutely sure that you have changed countless lives. I know so. Devin know so too. I don't usually like speaking for him, but in this case I will, so. But we hope to hear from you soon. Please keep us up to date with what work you're doing, and you're always welcome here on the podcast. If you'd like to jump on in and give us another update. Tell us what's happening.
Oronde: Oh, thanks, I appreciate it. And I'm glad to send that trailer.
Caitlin: Okay. Perfect. Thank you so much.
Photo courtesy of Oronde McClain.