Armed with Reason: The Podcast - Finding Purpose After Loss
Founder of Fudge Foundation is letting other survivors know they're not alone
Our guest this week is Dion Green, the founder and CEO of Flourishing Under Distress Given Encouragement — otherwise known as the Fudge Foundation — a 501c3 nonprofit that helps survivors through traumatic experiences with resources and support.
Throughout this talk — hosted by GVPedia leaders Devin Hughes and Caitlin Clarkson Pereira — Dion speaks of the tragedy that eventually led him to gun violence prevention advocacy. Along with his inspiring work in youth counseling, he lays out the numerous barriers to stopping the violence — from differences in advocates’ cultures, to the often frustrating intricacies of the Victims of Crime Act (VOCA), the general hardships of securing funding for community projects, ego clashes within the GVP movement, and hovering over all of it, the ongoing psychological trauma of being a survivor.
“When you're really in a community, you know what a community really needs…. So not only am I there, I'm trying to figure out how do we change the mindset in the communities to stop these violent events from occurring, but also I'm pouring for the youth.”
You can listen to the podcast via our channel on Spotify as well as on YouTube, or read the transcription below.
(We apologize for any audio glitches you may hear throughout the recording; we were experiencing some technical challenges. Some brief audio portions have been edited out of the podcast transcription below for length and clarity.)
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION:
Caitlin: Hello everyone. Thanks for joining us here on the Armed With Reason podcast brought to you by GVPedia. Since our inaugural episode of this podcast, which was nearly two years ago, Devin and I have been humbled to speak with some fantastic advocates in the gun violence prevention movement. And our guest today is another individual that we are grateful to add to that list. Dion Green is the founder and CEO of the Flourishing Under Distress Given Encouragement — otherwise known as Fudge Foundation — which is a 501c3 nonprofit that helps survivors through traumatic experiences with resources and support. The Fudge Foundation seeks to support individuals on their journey of grief and healing from traumatic events by delivering support services and advocacy locally and nationally. Dion is also a published author of his memoir — which is Untitled: Act of God/Act of Man — sharing his tragedies and demonstrating a sense of resilience through his journey by forgiving and giving back to his community. Dion is a prominent advocate against gun violence, actively engaging with communities across the nation that have been profoundly affected by this pressing issue. His dedication extends beyond mere activism. He operates the foundation he established to support those impacted by gun violence and to champion efforts towards meaningful change in gun legislation. Dion, you certainly are a very, very busy man. So thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us here today.
Dion: Thank you for just allowing me to be on a platform to be able to share what I do around the country. So thank you.
Caitlin: Yes, absolutely, of course. Just to kick us off today, do you mind sharing with us what motivated you to create the Fudge Foundation, and tell us about the work that the foundation does today?
Dion: Yes ma'am. So the first foundation was created the year 2019 after the Dayton, Ohio, mass shooting that happened here in the Oregon entertainment district that's known, you know, partying and school campuses. At night there was an individual that came onto that scene that killed nine individuals. One of them happened to be my father, Derrick Fudge, who was shot and killed beside me. But also he killed his sister in front of me and seven others.
Derrick Fudge
That night, I didn't know what the future held for me. I just know that I survived and my father didn't, but also knowing that so many other people that was down there that was impacted were being denied resources. So that's what helped me create the Fudge Foundation, to help people with OCA and just give people the space, but also let them know they're not alone in that fight, because I felt alone after that event happened. Growing up across the country — whether it's in Maine, Buffalo, Nashville, Highland Park, New York — just being there to let other survivors know that they're not alone. And it is possible. And it's a journey. But you know, just continue to show up to give them my heart, because I'm still breathing as well. I always ask God, why does it take one broken heart to help heal other broken hearts? But I quit asking that, you know I quit asking that because that I will never get that answer. So all I continue to do is just keep showing up, and being present, and being intentional in those spaces for other survivors.
Caitlin: Wow. Yes, I am so sorry to hear about your father. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about him.
Dion: Yeah. So, as you know, my organization's name is called the Fudge Foundation. That's the acronym, but my organization stands for Flourishing Under Distress Giving Encouragement, which is a 501c3. But I created it in honor of him. But the work is for many. My dad is a big Pittsburgh Steelers fan. I'm a Colts fan. So you know a lot of the colors on my website is in honor him. So only he'd know that the black and gold is really in honor to him. You know, my father, he had a very rough life growing up. And what really hurt me the most in this situation was it took my father 57 years to understand what life really was. And then it was robbed from him. But my dad loved dogs. He would give you his shirt off his back. He always stood in front of the store and rang the bell for the Salvation Army to collect for Christmas over the years. When the shooting happened, I stood in place for him. And when I tell you I don't know how he did that, because that was one of the hardest things to do, to stand on your feet from sunup to sundown. But I did it. And it was just a connection that came with that…. Man, he was just nothing but a big old kid, you know? And I enjoyed all the moments that I got to spend with him. And even though I hate saying that my father died in my arms, at least I could be with him in his last moments.
At first, I didn't understand that, what people would be like, Dion, at least you was there with your dad in those last moments. Do you know I can tell you that story without closing my eyes? You know, it's just a vision that I play back constantly, replay, replay. My father was shot five times beside me, not one of those bullets touched me. So, you know, in the beginning of my journey I would get mad, but as a mother and a father, what is the one thing you'll give your life for? It's your child. So knowing that my dad, hopefully he had a smooth transition knowing that I wasn't laying beside him as well either. So this fight is bigger than, it's just bigger than me. I'm just going to continue to keep showing up, and just hoping that somebody else doesn't go through this feeling, because everybody don't bounce back, right? And sometimes I see that in my advocacy. I think a lot of people forget that I'm a survivor and a victim.... But when there's time for me to show up and I say, Hey, I can't right now; I can send resources from afar. I feel like sometimes they get mad, but they don't understand that I'm depleting myself. I'm still healing. So I have to recharge....
So that's been one of the hardest things to set the boundaries, because every time there's a shooting, you know, Southwest flies me to these places for free to work with the community, but also elected officials, just knowing how to approach the situation. Because you think common sense would be common in those moments. Common sense is lost. And, you know, and for like example, you have contacted me, but I hear from the news first, where you should call me first before the news relay that message, just common courtesy. So just helping people get through the things that wasn't in place for me. So, and that's what a leader is, to help take what you have learned, to shape it and create it better for others.
But also, I don't want nobody to feel any of this pain, but that's what creating my advocacy work. You know, this wasn't my life before then. I didn't have no directions on what to do next. I just kept showing up, and speaking out, and fighting my way into doors. And I always tell people, the biggest asset you got in your toolbox is your voice. Use it! Continue to use it because as you continue to use it somebody's listening, and that person might pull you to the side and create that connection, but also a connection can lead to other things. So align yourself up with other people that have the same mission the same same vision as you to to make the impact bigger. So it's just been it's been a fight, and I've been learning it all by myself. But I always look at everything for a reason. The work that I'm learning, what I pass on to the next leader, I don't bird feed him. I give him everything that he needs to be best for or thriving to be able to help others that go through it. Because in this fight, there's a lot of egos involved. It's sad, but it is. You know, it's a lotta egos involve, you know. I always say, yeah, me and this person, we do the same work — but then I had to think about it. I do it a little bit more differently. Do I hate the AR-15? Yes, I know what it did to my father. I was right there. So when I'm in DC, yes, I will speak on that weapon and why I don't like it, but I've been experiencing community gun violence my whole life. I've be losing loved ones and friends.
So not only am I there, I'm trying to figure out how do we change the mindset in the communities to stop these violent events from occurring, but also I'm pouring for the youth. So I had to start changing my language like, yeah, we do the same work. No, we don't. Because a lot of them only align in getting that done, I go beyond the measures and keep pouring and pouring and pouring into those. So, you know, that was some of the things I've done. You know, I had the first lawsuit against the ammunition company. You know that was very draining because you're talking to lawyers and they scared to get involved because those three letters that we're fighting against [NRA] that make presidents, they're nervous. You know, God put the right attorneys in front of me, and we're about to be in court. You know, we moved over PLCAA (Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act). My court is in Las Vegas, but we won in the Supreme Court.... And that's going against the 100-round drum.
So a lot of the things that I'm fighting for is common sense. You know the first thing that get us shut down in conversations when they think we're trying to control guns, right? You know at the end of the day, I wouldn't care if we didn't have them or not. You know, to keep the conversation moving, we talk about common sense. It should be common. You know, one thing I know in that shooting, I don't want nobody to die, but maybe it wouldn't have been nine fatalities, it only would have been one. I was in that street hearing the police having to keep reload, reload, while my shooter was just holding that trigger, and it just sounded like a long roll of firecrackers — da-da-da-da-da — just going off. So I know right there [a ban] would save lives. I know that if we lock guns up in the household, so your kids don't get them and take them in the community or take them to school, we can save lives.
So there's things that we can do to save lives that just, who's gonna have the courage in Congress and in these state houses to say, Hey, man, I might lose you as a friend, but I have to move forward with this because one life is worth saving. You know, and that's one of the things that I've heard. I don't know if you read the background, but I ran for Ohio State House this year. In our state house, I ran for House of Representatives, and I lost by a very few. And my campaign account is still open, if God directs me to run back into that area. But when I returned back from New Orleans from the New Year's Eve situation, God placed something on me to buy a building in the worst spot of Dayton. So I bought a building that I am creating — a community center / resource center. But I will bring in my mentorship as I work with over thousands of kids.
I'm a social worker, so I bring in my practice there, partner with the union to teach trades, to help our youth know how to make money. Because they keep telling, they want our youth to put a weapon down, but what do you put in the other hand? And you don't just say, put it in the other hand — that person might not read and write. So you might have to walk with them…. [Inaudible.] They might not read or write. So some of these people require more time invested. So if we're gonna do that, we got to point them to make sure that they make it all the way through to be successful.
You know, gun violence, they say that it's a mindset.... I thought... in that community to work here in Dayton, Ohio, to give them something transformative, but also something that creates the same for them to be able to use resources and the things they need to thrive in that community. [Stuff like youth camps, working with juveniles], and operating workshops on grief and healing, and speaking at schools. Just showing up and being the best at what I'm doing. And also sitting on a lot of boards and you know speaking from policy. Because a lot of this just becomes this virus, especially in the black and brown community. So, we have to start opening the door [and go show what it looks like], because we live in that community, but also we have that experience... Also we know what can help the next person that's going through that experience.
Caitlin: Sorry, we lost a little bit of what you were saying there, but we certainly got the gist of it, and your point that so many of these issues related to gun violence, they're not silos, right? We can't just address one. So you saying if you're telling a kid to put the gun down, what are you gonna put in his hands instead? It's extremely valid.
And obviously we know that community violence intervention programs are extremely important in this country. Of course, those things are not for free. And if we really care about saving lives, like we say do, and I use we as in the collective — including politicians who like to stand at press conferences and say the right things, but unfortunately don't always act in the right ways — then we need to put our money where our mouth is for sure. And your point about schools as well. I saw a statistic earlier today that said 3/4 of guns that are used in school shootings are from the home. And so if we care about teachers as much as we say we do — and this week happens to be Teacher Appreciation Week — then all we need to do is simply lock up our guns. And unfortunately that means the bar is terribly low. That instead of bringing a nice thank you gift to our teachers, we just hopefully won't put them in a situation where they're in danger or their students, our children, are not in danger. We certainly have a lot of work to do, unfortunately.
Dion: And I, and I always tell people when I'm speaking, I always say like, Hey, we can go to Walmart right now and go down every hour where there's cars at — I guarantee you we'll find an unlocked car and a loaded pistol in there that's not properly secured. And so I think we need to hold people accountable. I mean, you hold drinking and driving accountable. So, you know, we need to hold things accountable, but we know that's a sticky area.... But it's like, this can happen to you. But at first, I used to think to our leaders, I'm like, would you change these laws if it happened to you? But as I've been in this fight, I don't think they would, and that's sad.
Devin: We even had the shooting at the Congressional Republican baseball field, I think that was what, five, six years ago. And none of them have changed their positions. And in fact, tend to be like, Oh, more guns will be the answer. So it's almost the direct opposite approach of, Hey, you don't want a gun in these kids' hands. Well now they're doing with teachers where it's like, put down the pencil and pick up a gun. It's like, no, this is the exact opposite.
I really do appreciate your comments and wisdom on how gun violence is multifaceted, but requires a comprehensive solution and not silos, because there's so often, unfortunately in the gun violence prevention space, like, Oh I'm going to focus only on an assault weapons ban, or only on safe storage, or only community violence interruption. And while all that work is incredibly important -- and oftentimes these are small organizations with a limited budget, so they kind of have to pick their focus — but as a movement and for even larger organizations, we have to recognize that everything's interconnected. Because with safe storage, one of the important factors is making sure those guns aren't stolen, which there's around 2 to 400,000 guns annually that are stolen. And then those guns end up in the communities where the community violence interruption programs are doing their important work.
So while I've heard from the pro-gun side that there is no gun violence, all these little other or different aspects that require tailored solutions. It's like, no, it is all interconnected. Even if the violence is mostly appearing in one form in one community versus in another form in another community, it all ties back to the lethality of these firearms and the complete lack of regulations, and also community support. And all of that needs to be addressed. And I'm deeply, deeply grateful to you and your work, seeing that picture and trying to address all these various factors that all contribute to the same overarching problem.
Dion: Yeah, because, you know, what I have experienced is that the mass shootings kind of create a separation as a systemic barrier. And I'll go into a little bit more in depth about why I say that, because when you hear about mass shootings and organizations that are in D.C. advocating, nine times out of 10 I've seen, [most advocates don't look like me]. So sometimes I call and say, Hey, why I'm not there? I'm gonna ask you that. Because at the end of the day, I'm a victim too, just as well. My shooter was a white male. But for some reason, in community gun violence, like I said, gun violence has been very prevalent in the Black community. But as it starts to hit certain communities, and of course, they didn't think it was racist. Now, we want to ban this. We want to fight that. But where was that happening? Since we've been experiencing, like, I've been losing loved ones to gun violence since I've been a child, even though a lot of these other individuals, I hate that they had to go through this, because that's probably the first time they ever experienced gun violence, to be honest with you. [Inaudible.] Why wasn't I invited? Because I have just as much knowledge as you do. Probably I have more, because I really have lived through that life.
But also, the difference that I see is the community gun violence, we don't get the resources. Well, I'm not going to say me, because got them. But they don't give the resources as the mass violence unaliving. So now it creates what makes you better than me? Why can you get the help but we can't? So, you know, it's muddy waters. And I'm just gonna continue to keep showing up and also advocating for all. But also understanding where, you know, I hate the term black-on-black violence or crime. You know, you don't ever hear about Asian-on-Asian or Japan-on-Japan. So we're clickbait. So you see the shooting that happened today, but you don't come back a year to see how it affected the community. [Inaudible.]
So I'm very big on what are you doing to help them get through that. Just because my shooting happened in 2019, and those resources was available then, you can't tell me when my trauma is going to resonate. It might resonate in 2026. Are those resources still gonna be available? And when these shootings happen, we know that [inaudible] shows up right — they create a community center, families come, they come and ask for help this this and that. First and foremost, I can talk [about our community] who have been bamboozled and hoodwinked when they come to research — from the [inaudible], from the airmen from being experimented. So we understand that. We don't kind of show up because the trust ain't there.
So that's why I show up in communities like that. I go into the community to let them know that they need a loan. I created an organization that I work with around the country. Whether you want to advocate in a mental health organization, or you want to advocate in criminal legislation. I know that. Where you want to get connected with... support groups, I have a pocket of organizations around the country where I can connect you with. But also you don't have to keep sharing your stories going back to that center. Because when the next shooting happens, I have to pack up and leave right, and go to that….
So that is why I created my foundation, and that's why I fought against VOCA (Victims of Crime Act), because in the midst of all of that you got me filling out this invasive form to ask for help in the moment where I don't think I know how to spell my name. [But I came to sign this before], and one of them was my father, but you asking me, Hey, what about this? What about that? What about this, what about that? And my father got denied because he was nine years and six months, and you had to be 10 years. If you all know about VOCA, you had be 10 years without being in trouble to get assistance from the state… [inaudible].
Devin: Yeah, so if you could tell us a bit more about the form in the wake of the shooting and just the, also the general lack of resources or even like the misallocation of resources, that'd be greatly appreciated.
Dion: Okay, so yeah, the reason what really created the Fudge Foundation was my father was denied help from the state of Ohio due to him being nine years and six months of not being in trouble and the requirement was 10 years. But also I was hearing about other survivors that was shot that wasn't able to receive the help as well because they had like their medication in there. So it made me think I'm like, well, if we're being denied, how many other people are being denied this? Earlier that first year that we fought the bill, we moved it through the House and the Senate, but here comes Stand Your Ground. So you know that passed throughout the whole country right? And that was in a lame duck session.
So boom, the following year we resubmitted it again, and we end up getting it passed. So we revised the bill so anybody can go back and reapply in the Oregon district mass shooting who didn't get the services or who had a felony or a misdemeanor on their records; but also it got rid of like just all the barriers, and we made it three years retroactive. But what people don't understand, when these things happen, VOCA is a pot that's in every state. Every state has a pot called VOCA for those that are impacted by crime or violence. And what that package does is it helps families with burial expenses, mental health, if you got to take off work, and just other little things about that. But the barriers behind it kept people out of the loop, made them ineligible because all the requirements. And we kind of know where, what community that was affecting the most, you know? So that's what made me fight that.
But also just the application process is just, oh my gosh, is very invasive. So imagine you just lost someone right beside you, and then you get this package to fill out everything. I mean, it's asking questions that you have to think about, because you're like, man, I don't even know. In the midst of, you ain't even buried your loved one yet. So it was like, why am I filling this out, and this, this, and that? And then the day of the funeral, I get the letter back of being denied. So I ripped that paper up and said, to Hell with Ohio, because it made me mad. But it just made me realize, and the thing that I would speak on the floor said, yeah, we all miss our loved ones, but we are the ones that's dealing with this. And I used my example on when you don't address those that have been through it, what it looks like.
So for example, you know, when the shooting happened, I was coping in a negative way, right? I was drinking alcohol. So I was running from it instead of facing it. So, you know, I'm running from my alcohol intake up. So listen to how I play everything out, and how this forms out if people don't get to help. So my alcohol intake goes up because I'm trying to cope with it in the right way. So alcohol is the only thing that I do, but also I don't care about bills, right? I don' care about nothing in life. I'm, you know, I don't care. I just don't care. So now you're not paying attention to your bills, you're getting behind. So now it's you're almost in a moment where you're about to become homeless. So I'm just showing you what the cycle would look like if we don't address it. But then as you're about to become homeless, that alcohol just don't do it no more. So now you're like, man, I need something a little bit harder. So now, you move to something like hardcore drugs, but now you homeless, you don't have money, now that turns into crime. 'Cause now in order to support my habit, now I'm looking to rob to get what I need. So if we don't address those people that, like myself that go through it, we're going to be the next statistic coming through your courtroom because we didn't get the help that we needed. So from all of that, you got substance abuse; you got homelessness that can occur because don't nobody care about nothing in that moment; but also you got crime that's going to occur because if you take that substance abuse and you need to do it further your substance and you got need hardcore drugs and don't got money, you're looking to rob and steal. So now that's crime. But also. I'm your next wave of a criminal coming through your courtroom because I didn't get the help that I needed. So we have to pour into those that has been impacted to make sure that they get everything that we can offer them to be able to be the new person they're going to be.
Devin: And that also further perpetuates the cycle of not trusting the system in the first place because like, why would you if you're like, Here, fill out this form on a scale of one to 10, how do you feel? What's your mother's middle name? Where did you go to middle school or whatever? Like questions and all those barriers at a point when the person's at their lowest, and that's going to be like, why even bother showing up in the first place. Which can further accentuate that barrier between the resources that are really needed for all these communities. And then you just are perpetuating a downward spiral. And it's also a cost that so often does not really appear on any official records because it's super hard to measure.
But also people tend not to think about where oftentimes the gun violence statistics are recorded. Like death, injury, and even injury data is very variable. And then it stops, and not recognizing the pain that you're mentioning for years upon years afterwards and the support that's going to be needed. And that's rarely factored into discussions over the cost, both financial and societal for gun violence -- how it's not just the one act back in 2019, but it continues forward for all the people that were around.
Dion: So one of the things that I've learned where just dealing in this gun violence world and stuff like that, first of all, there's a lot of people that are fighting this fight that really not intentional. And they always say, Dion, what is the one thing you see across the country that can change gun violence? First and foremost, I always say this — everybody’s programs look similar, right? But when you're really in a community, you know what a community really needs. So you can take from that and then build your own, but there's a lot of people that's getting these grants and doing this and that, and they're just copying it and pasting it. And then they wonder why they're not getting results. If you're not in a community and you know what that community needs, you're not gonna get the results you're looking for. So some community might need more of this and less of that. Some might need that and less of this. And that's what I tell people, but everybody keeps talking about gun violence, But in order to fight gun violence you gotta address the root cause of that, and a lot of that is trauma, and there's a past behind that. So we have to start addressing those causes in order to start fighting the causes that are causing problems.
But, you know, everybody just looks for that swift and quick solution where it's not. You got to invest. You have to plant your seeds and continue to pour and pour until it sprouts. You know, my goal is to save the world, but I know it's impossible. But one life is worth saving, as I always say. So if I'm working with five and four of them didn't make it, but one did, yes, I feel that I let myself down, but also I'm not gonna beat myself up too bad because one person didn't make it, you know? And that's enough to continue to keep fighting, you know? We can we can lead you to the water and give you everything you need, but you have to be the one willing to want change — if you're in that community doing the things that you shouldn't be doing. So just just pouring into them and and letting people understand, because people are addressing gun violence, but they don't understand what a community looks like. Like in my community, you come out on the front porch, we didn't have positive role models this this and that, you had crime here and drugs there. So, you know, some things where it comes in that environment.
So that's why I've been pouring into my youth, like, man, listen, y'all have a lot of people that are giving back. Whether you don't receive it, you're gonna hear me, and the rest is yours. And I hate to share the facts with them, but I tell them, some of the best place for y' all might be prison. Because if you're doing the things that you're not supposed to be doing, at least your mom and dad can come and visit you. Behind a glass wall instead of putting a flower on your tombstone. If you're gonna live that life, I'm gonna show you what it looks like behind the bars and speaking to the kids. I did 10 years in prison, so I'm not speaking from a book, I'm speaking from reality. So when I'm working with youth, they more connect to me because I've been where they've been. Actually, I've a little bit more worse than where they'd been at. But to let them see that your past doesn't determine your future, it's something that I gotta keep fighting into them and saying, Hey, come on now, come one. You know, I did this. I can show you what not to do so you don't go down the road I've been through.
But everything happens for a reason. And that's really what my topic is. Every choice has an impact that we make. And we all made choices. You had a choice to get on this call. I had a choice to get on this car. But till you start understanding the impact, like for my instance with my shooter, right? And this is a true story. My shooter, I wrote his parents and told him I forgive, because I can't do this work if I'm not really walking in the true mission of forgiveness, right? Because we know anger is just as bad as stress. And when you allow that anger to beat down on you, you're going to miss all the great things that he's putting in front of you to be able to help other people. So I forgive, but now let me share to you the choices that her son made and the impact that it has on her. Now she's out in the community, everybody hates you. And that's what I try to make my kids understand. Like your choices don't just impact you, it impacts everybody around you. You know, that dude did the shooting, but now his parents are hating. If we can make our youth think before they react, we got a chance. We got a chance, man. We got a chance.
Devin: And that kind of leads to two kind of separate but related questions that I have. One, you're talking about the root causes of gun violence, and one of the root cause is that GVPedia focuses on that I still feel doesn't get as much attention is disinformation and the belief that because why do most people get guns? It's because they believe that it's going to make them safer in some fashion. And that kind of translates across communities. And that is a root cause, because if you're not going to have that gun, violence is not going turn as lethal. And that one second snapping point that might have otherwise led to a fistfight or something else turns into a lethal encounter. And people tend to get guns across a vast swath of communities because they think, Well others have guns, and so I need to arm myself as well.
Dion: What about this, Devin? What about what about the good guys with guns? I don't know. You know, I'm saying that, you know, that's they main pushback. And I always say this. So and I don' like to put race on the table, but let's be honest, if the police came into my mass shooting that happened that night, and I was the shooter taking down the other shooter, I don't know if I would be here.
Caitlin: You're absolutely correct by wondering that.
Devin: And there's one case that springs to mind immediately where there was a bouncer at this bar, and there was a shooting that broke out. The bouncer grabbed the shooter, was able to pin him down, took his gun. The police come, see him with the gun, and shoot him.
Dion: Oh, wow.
Devin: And there's other cases like this, even if they're famous one or infamous one rather, with the shooting that Gabby Giffords was at, and it was a parking lot at Safeway, and a guy with a gun heard the shooting, came in to try to be the hero, started pointing his gun at the wrong person and was like milliseconds away from adding to the tragedy before the crowd around screaming. No, no, that's not the perpetrator!! And so in so many of these cases, it's like, how do you tell — with the whole good guy with a gun — how did you tell who's the good guy versus the bad guy until one starts shooting. And if the good guys, in air quotes, start shooting at the bad guy to stop him, how is anybody supposed to know in these chaotic situations who's the good and bad. And instincts are going to take over and that's going to lead to tragedies. And we see that many times.
And yeah, like I fully agree in your situation, like you add another gun to that scenario, it's not going to make things better. And that brings one more incident to mind, because you touched on one of my hobby horses as it were, where there is the Dallas sniper shooting — like gosh, that must been like a decade or so ago now — where a sniper was shooting an open carry rally. And of course, the moment shots ring out, all these guys who were open carrying AR-15s and stuff are scrambling all over the place, like trying to raise their guns to figure out where the shooting's coming from. And the police officers there had a full nightmare because everybody has guns, it's super hard to figure out where the shots are coming from. It just created an entire fiasco that likely resulted in more people being shot and killed because nobody could figure out who's doing the shooting as everybody had guns.
Yeah, so to kind of end my own rant on this, I'm curious in one part where, like what sort of disinformation kind of like the good guys with guns do you frequently encounter in your work? And then two, like so much of your story is resilience and continuing forward, even through incredibly dark times. And one of the things that I've encountered in this work — and I'm not a survivor, have not been directly impacted by a shooting — but there's so much burnout in the gun violence prevention space. And I even feel its impact where it's just, like oftentimes defeat after defeat and just trying to keep on going even when things feel like there's very little forward progress, or that good ideas aren't necessarily being listened to. So what sort of advice do you have to prevent burnout.
Dion: So with the burnout part, I do be tired all the time, but I always say this — I bet you my father and many other victims would love to say that, right? I'm going to continue to keep showing up, and I'm gonna keep being present and being intentional in any space that I'm used or wherever God places me to. The first thing to the burnout to keep yourself is you got to set boundaries. Boundaries is self-love. You have to love self before you can love others. That's household, that's wife, you can't love nobody else if you don't love yourself. So, you know, love yourself, be kind to yourself, or back into yourself, and you know figure out what brings you, maybe not joy, but it brings you a little bit of sunshine in those moments.
So, you know, I'm a very born in the city, but I'm really a country guy. I love being on the water, I canoe, I throw mental health retreats here. This year, it'll be my Honey and Sage bonfire event. This will be the fifth year. Last year, got so big where I bring in like 30 entertainers, vendors. We do workshops on sustainability, community building. We hold workshops going down the river. And we do a co-op, and it's a weekend where I wear no shoes I'm just grounded to the earth. Last year we had over 300 campers. So it's a weekend full of just festivities and building and, you know, everybody brings out their tents and they got the areas, and it, and we just glamp, and we just build, we build relationships. We have co-ops come from Pittsburgh, Chicago, and we look how sustainability. So we teach kids just nature. I love fishing, and I love working out.
You know, but also I have a circle of friends that I've been to. So like Devin, you might be one of my friends that I call and just test out. You don't say nothing, but you let me off my chest. And I do that for my people. I tell people, you can call me anytime. And when I say they do, they do because my mental health breakdown don't come between 7 a.m. and 3 p.m., mine comes when the world is quiet around 3 a.m., 4 a.m. And that's when It just gets unbearable because I've been trying to understand this. I hate it so much is that when you experience something so dramatic, my brain is like in... on how to save lives. Like it don't shut off. I'm always thinking, what's next, what next? Much as I love that, much as I hate that.
You know, I just did a interview somewhere, and I just told him, I said, man, I'm tired. I would love to go on a trip and just smile, and laugh, and not think about nothing else. But in my car is my dangerous moment because I won't turn the radio on, and I'm thinking what's next. How can I save a life? What can I do to impact? What's different? And you'll hear that from pretty much every survivor that has done something. You know I always tell survivors You can never be the person you was before. You are a new person. So just imagine what I'm telling you this. I changed two times in 2019. The tornado, I can never beat that person who I was then because that was something dramatic. And then 30 days later, here comes another super dramatic event. So I changed twice identity-wise and who I am. And I'm still learning and still fighting. I wake up every day like, who are you? My first defeat to the world is I get up and put two feet on the ground, because anybody that has been through something so traumatic, we can lay in bed for the whole year and not do nothing.
Devin: And I forget where I heard it now, but like there's this one quote of like: we are what we do, not what we did. And I think that can be rather empowering to where it's like, yes, I mean, what we did in the past has consequences and stuff, but the choices we make right here and right now, that's what can define us. And we keep doing that each and every day going forward, and making that active choice of who we are right now.
Dion: You got to understand, some people, when they experience this, some people... We all grieve and heal differently. So just because I got up and speak, rest of my other families, they don't speak up. I speak for them all. So we all fight our battles differently. But healing, my healing journey is my walk through my pain, but also creating purpose out of it. So even though it's healing, people say, Dion, how do you go back to those mass shootings and help those communities and you've been impacted? That's just something that God gives me the strength to get there, to get through it, but it does beat me down, you know? And Uvalde beat me down, Buffalo really beat me down because the similarities was very the same, you know, body armor, all of that.
So I put myself back in those moments, but he's protected me in those moments because somebody else needs me at that moment. You know, a lot of people don't know what's next. I didn't know how to plan funerals. I didn't know how do this and that. So I'm a guidance, and I want them to see that when you're ready, it's possible to come out that dark hole, and come out even stronger than who you was.
Caitlin: And it's okay for multiple things to be true, Dion, right? It's okay to think, you know, if my father was here or my son or daughter was here or my best friend was here or whoever someone has lost to gun violence — or more than one person, unfortunately they've lost to a gun violence — it's okay to think, if they were here, they would love to be tired. They would love be putting up this fight. That can be true. And it also can be true that sometimes you just like need to take a moment, right? So I that 3a.m. By yourself, when it's quiet around you, it's just to reinforce — I know, you know, this — but it's okay to have tough moments there. And that doesn't mean you have to wake up, right, doesn't have to wake up and say, I'm going to get up and start working on something productive. Staying very busy is a trauma response, you know, in every realm of trauma, gun violence, and all the other terrible things that can happen in life.
But for us here, you saying the quiet part out loud, which is what you're doing, right? This isn't just about school shootings. This isn' just about the suburbs. This isn't just about somebody who experienced gun violence one time, right? This is about those of us who don't know a life without gun violence, who woke up every single day as a kid and continue to wake up every single day now thinking, am I going to lose someone today, am i going to have to run out on the street and render first aid to somebody who's been shot, like all of these scenarios that are so real in so many of our communities.
Dion: I didn't really share too much of it last year, but last year my father's older brother was killed by his neighbor in his door. And listen to this, so the neighbor came over to my uncle's house, they got into it, he left, he came back, and shot my uncle in his door. But guess what — they're both black, nobody got to stand your ground. No, no, he got to use to stand your ground. I believe so. I think the detective said that or something like that. It was something, but I'm like, how is it standing your ground when you left and you came back? I wasn't understanding that. Yeah, my father's older brother, Roger Fudge. And that was just last year. I didn't speak too much on it, you know because it was just like, geez, like I'm just constantly being hit by that, back-to-back-to-back. But yeah, you now, 'cause I work with the detectives a lot, and just help them with things. And they were just like Dion, we don't have evidence right now, this, this, and that. But my thing is this, like if he retreated, it couldn't be stand your ground because you came back.
Devin: That kind of reminds me of the shooting, I think it was a few years ago in either South Carolina or Georgia, where these two incredibly racist white guys in a truck like followed a black jogger. And yeah, yeah. And they claimed like, oh, stand your ground, self-defense. And the case was initially dismissed on that until the video that they had taken of hunting him down came out. And they even tried then. It's like, how can you have a stand your ground case when you're following and then obviously being the aggressor? And that's just one of the many insanities of stand your ground.
And to kind of wind down here, we want to be respectful of your time. I want to touch on something that you had mentioned earlier about basically kind of the cookie cutter or copy and paste type approach to many programs, and like the lack of trust in researchers. And I kind of wanna ask about how to bridge this divide, because from a researcher's perspective, oftentimes they wanna make sure that the program is exactly the same and being tested in multiple areas to make sure they're able to control all the variables and see like, Oh, is it the program that's working or is it other factors? And that approach kind of lends itself to the cookie cutter type thing. But then it's also at the same time like a top-down sort of thing, and not recognizing, hey, this community really needs a bit more of this and something entirely unrelated to the program that we can then include. But also some other aspects of this program can either be toned down or like adjusted.
And so really having that feedback from the community, while at the same time recognizing that's going to mess up the statistical data to a degree to where it's going to be harder to get funding for those types of programs, because you can't necessarily prove that they work. And I can see the barriers, the incentives on all aspects of this to where like we do need to be able to learn lessons of what works from other communities and see how they can apply, but also recognizing that each community's uniqueness is going to need a different set of things. And we need to able to study the impact to learn what works and what doesn't.
So how do you feel we can kind of bridge that divide between the advocates on the ground — who truly know the community — and researchers who might know like, hey, this worked really well in this other community and there's lessons that can be applied, but to create some sort of flexibility while still being able to measure everything and be able to get funding in the future for life-saving impacts.
Dion: Man, that is amazing question. And that's some of the things that. I face here because, you know on the DOJ website, prevention looks like this, blah, blah blah blah. But prevention can be, Hey, Devin, do you want to go out and eat? And we sit down and have a conversation, and you might was going to hurt yourself. And, but me and you eating gave you another, you said, man, I'm a live today. You know, prevention comes in so many different shapes and forms, you know what I'm saying? But they think that it has to be this program, this, this, and that. Sometimes, man, it's just spending time with the individual, showing that somebody cares for them.
So there's ways that prevention can help in so many ways, but we're so caught up on one way and one template where if it don't work this, go this way, this is not prevention. I gotta tell people, I'm on TV a lot. It's hard to see whose life I didn't see that was probably watching that television with a gun to their head, but heard my story and say, If he can make it, I can make it — and they don't kill they self. And I probably never speak to this individual a day in my life. You know, so I can't really share numbers of this, this, and that because somebody's watching and I gave them another day on earth to live because they thought they had it bad, and they seen that I've been through worse, and I'm still moving forward trying to spread love and light.
So, you know, we have to work together. But also, man, a lot of this stuff involves ego. I don't like working with organizations that are ego-driven. If it's not impact-driven, I don' want to, because a lot the stuff is, if your logo is bigger than mine, I don't wanna be a part of that. If it's this, this, and that — listen. I'm all about impact. If you're about impact and intentional, I will partner with you in any way, shape, or form. But when I start seeing that we're not on the same page, I have to pull away. And the reason why I say that because there's a lot of organizations getting money and getting funding, but they ain't reaching out to the people that's really doing the work. And so they'll use us when there's no money involved, but then when there is money involved. It's silent, it's crickets.
So, you know, and that's here in Ohio. Like I have a thing coming up here with our Senator. And it's just one of the things in Ohio, when I'm outside of Ohio, I'm very much more powerful out of Ohio than I am in Ohio and it sad, but it's always, your home state is always your hard state, right? But they're sitting here to push policy and all of that. But like I told them, you don't have no advocates up here, people that have been through it, that you all are standing beside, not standing in front, standing beside or standing behind. Because really, when we in rooms and we're given that, we're the ones that really push for your call to action. You can sit here and tell me everything, our legislation, this, this, and that. But when you have an individual that's been through it and you're given it, that room, the raw emotional feelings — whether it's six months from the shooting to five years and they're still seeing the pain — it kind of festers up a type of thing like how do I get involved now? How can I help? How can this, this, and that, you know. But a lot of people, a lot of organizations, they're getting better at it a little bit, especially I will say in my areas, 'cause I sit on a lot boards where a lot of us survivors are sitting on a lot of trauma policy-driven boards, you of how to connect the communities. But all the other stuff is like, they don't, they use us and abuse us, and then they get rid of you. And I hate to say it like that, but this is how it is. Who's the next one up? Who got the next light? This and that. It's sad that it's really becomes a glitz and glam thing.
And I got to tell people, man, I would give back any and everything I've done to have my father back and the other eight for those families, and everybody else's family that has been lost. I didn't ask for this life. You know, I just stepped into it. And instead of it consuming me and being quiet about something, I said, man, I'm gonna raise my voice and at least try to change something. And that's what I've been doing. But you know, the advocacy part in legislation, it aligns together because, I mean, it serves that gap on the societal needs and on the legislative process on a multifaceted approach. You know, I mean, just, you know, having our expertise and how we can mobilize and build things, but also with the skill set of researchers, and how how we bring that vision to life and bring it to a community. And like I tell people, you know, cause everything's all, how's it evidence-based practice? This, this, and that. I like to do things out the normal area and just figure out how it goes, because how do you think things became evidence-based practice? Somebody had to try it first, right? You know, like we have to continue to evolve.
Like the things that worked for us back then in my age group don't work now because we didn't have technology. So now we got to kind of include technology with the prevention side because that's all these kids know. So how do we connect? So it's evolving, but it's also sometimes if the leadership has to change, that's one thing I've seen with the older generation don't want to relinquish their power to the younger generation. And then they wonder why they can't connect communities. Well, sir, ma'am, you're a hundred years old. You don't know what's going on. That's going on in Capitol Hill. They don't know what's going on in this country. Them guys is a thousand years old, you know. So how do they know what we need best here in our community? And that goes with our state legislators. You got people that are represent my district, they live in the country, never been in the urban part, but you telling us urban people what we need, but you never step foot in there.
Devin: And that reminds me of a conversation I had. But like one of the quick things was how violence interruption stuff can occur with programs like TikTok and Instagram, where oftentimes there's a lot of overreach where it's like, oh, that's just a meme, not actually violence. But then at the same time, it's something can spark a violent incident on these channels, and try to figure out how to navigate that. And you have legislators that are like, what's a TikTok and why are you storing my information in China, like in a box or something, where they have no comprehension of even the technology. But it's fueling everything to where like, in a way that like 10 to 15 years ago, like these platforms didn't exist. So...
Dion: You know, uh, social media man is a gift and a curse. It's a gift in the curse. It can help out, but also, you know, it can hurt. And you know I speak to our youth, you know, their moment, their time is called a very viral moment, anything that can be viral. So I hold social media accountable. I hold the news media accountable, because as we continue to, they want to go viral. So if we give them the footage and the airplay, oh yeah, okay, they continue to do that. But when you shut it down, it's like a fire. If you put the fire out, it turns into smoke. But if you keep exposing it in, one thing happens and it goes 10,000, 20,000. I'm gonna keep chasing that view high, that's what I'm calling it, that view-high. So now I'm just gonna keep looking for a viral moment. But if we quit feeding into their moments, a lot of things, I think, would just die down. But when they get the attention, oh, yeah, I'm viral now. I need to look for my next thing to do, you know? So if we don't let their fire burn and we just slowly put it out, we go to the next.
Like, you, we had a big fight here in the news, in our school, but what they don't understand is you're showing it on television, but there might be a kid that's seen another kid get punched, like, bro, I seen you get punched. But now you just you're throwing gasoline on the fire because now you're going to school. Now this little other kid like, man, why you keep saying that? So now you see how things just chain react, chain react, chain react. So, you know, a lot of things that I tell the media like, come on, man, let's start showing a lot good in the world. And maybe we can change the mindset. I know y'all media's for this, this, and that, Let's let's start showing a lot of good and showing it in our communities, and hopefully people start picking up. You're going to imitate what you see. So if it's like inviting violence, violence, slowly, but surely you're going to be a part of it. You know, especially with our youth and you know, like, because they don't think they just do, then they they react.
But, you know just I don't know, man, I'm just going to continue to keep pouring into them and just keep helping them build out. Put tools in their toolbox to give them for later on in the future in life, and hope that I can watch some of them cross the stage and become successful in life, man. That's my goal, you know. You know, my age was make it to 18, 21. Shit, they gotta make it the 15 nowadays. And that's sad. They don't even know what life is about yet.
Caitlin: Yes. And I, again, as I said a little bit earlier, we very much appreciate you coming here, sharing your personal story with us, sharing the work that you do with us for the Fudge Foundation and in all the other avenues that you do powerful advocacy work. And again, for saying the quiet part out loud, because we did not launch Armed with Reason, the Substack, or Armed with Reason, the podcast to fill it with platitudes. And to be yes people, and to smile and nod along. We set it to share the truth and to give a platform to individuals who are doing the work, who are living this life so that the reality of what's happening can be out there in the world. And if people listening don't like that, and they're involved in the movement, then maybe they should take a good look in the mirror and decide why they're in the movement in the first place. So again, thank you so much for your time. And if you want to just let our listeners know where they can find the Fudge Foundation, maybe tell us about your website quickly.
Dion: You can tap into my website at www.fudgefoundation.org to keep you up with the latest things that's going on. You can sign up on my newsletter to get all the weekly news thing that's goin' on. And also just, if you need me, reach out, I'm here. And I stand on that, that's all we got. You know, we lean on each other in these moments, and I'm a shoulder to lean on, so please reach out. If I don't have the answers, I know somebody that does.
Caitlin: Well, and the same goes for us. We certainly do not have all the answers, but if we can ever be of any assistance to you or anybody that you're working with, we are just an email away. So the only way to solve this problem is to do it together. So we are very grateful to have you as a team member in all this.
Dion: Well, thank you, Caitlin. Thank you, Devin. And I hope that you'll have a great rest of the week. And hey, I'm here. Let's fight, fight, fight.
Caitlin: Thank you.
All photos courtesy of Dion Green.