Armed With Reason: The Podcast - Episode 29
Interview with domestic violence shooting survivor, Courtney Weaver
Here at Armed With Reason, we try to offer a space for stories from survivors. Needless to say, these are never easy stories to tell. Today’s podcast interview with survivor Courtney Weaver is unforgettably harrowing. Her survival, strength, and subsequent involvement in GVP advocacy though is especially inspirational. She has not only survived, but has an energized need to tell her story, help others, and get down to what it is about this country that seems increasingly self-defeating when it comes to gun culture. Not to mention, she’s a mother and blues-pop recording artist too.
This is the last of our pieces focusing on gun-related domestic violence for Domestic Violence Awareness Month.
“The only way I can see it is that it's like an abusive culture where denial and avoidance of accountability are just built into our framework; and they're able to make money off of that by spreading this misinformation that having a firearm as a woman will keep you safer…. Do we want everyone to have their guard up all the time thinking everyone's out to kill them? That sounds like paranoid schizophrenia. That does not sound like freedom. It doesn't sound like a way that anyone should want to live their lives.”
You can listen to the podcast via our channel on Spotify as well as watch on YouTube, or read the transcription below.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION:
Caitlin: Hello, everyone. Thanks for joining us here on the Armed With Reason podcast brought to you by GVPedia. You've heard me say before that our main motivation in starting this podcast last year was to give a voice to survivors of gun violence. And in this episode, I'm humbled to say we get to act on that mission.
Today we are joined by guest Courtney Weaver. In 2010, at the age of 23, Courtney's abusive boyfriend derailed her life and music career when he shot her in the face and arm with a 45 caliber hollow point. Since then, she has undergone 14 reconstructive surgeries and continuous emotional healing through her journey. She has become a fierce advocate for domestic violence and gun violence survivors. She has helped pass four laws in Washington State, and has become a policy and data activist for numerous organizations over the past 15 years. After she became a mother in 2021. In the midst of the pandemic and the height of America's gun violence epidemic, she grew even more passionate in her fight for the rights of domestic violence and gun violence survivors. Today, Courtney is proud to be an advocate for gun violence, data transparency and public health initiatives. She resides in New Orleans with her trained enthusiast toddler and still sings on occasion. Courtney, thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to be with us here today.
Courtney: Absolutely. And I'm looking forward to it being Domestic Violence Awareness Month. A lot of times domestic violence is something that gets kind of swept under the rug.
Caitlin: Yes, absolutely. And again, we are very humbled that you're you're open to having this conversation with us. We know it's not easy to talk about these things, but these stories certainly matter. And and we appreciate you being here. So I didn't want to delve too much into the details because I wanted you to be able to tell your story. So can you give us a little more insight into your experience and how you became such a strong advocate for domestic violence survivors?
Courtney: Ah, yeah. So, back in what feels like many lifetimes ago, but in 2009, I was pursuing my music career. I was singing 3 or 4 gigs a week, sang at five blues festivals. And at the age of 22, at the time when I met the man who shot me. I, you know, he swept me off my feet. He was much older. Our courtship was very fast. And there was an escalation that happened over the course of six months. He shot me on January 15th of 2010, which was six months to the day of when we first started dating. All these things in hindsight are all red flags, and they aren't widely known by people.
And so things had gone from bad to worse in our relationship. And I was grappling with all of his issues. And at that age, when I didn't have much to tie me down, I was making the steps to leave him. He proposed to me three days before my shooting, but it felt off at the time. And the night of the shooting, I was putting makeup on in my mirror because I wanted to get out of the house, because I hadn't seen my friends in weeks, because he'd been isolating me. He had continued to get stranger and stranger behavior. Which now I know is something that occurs when someone is contemplating homicide.
And I was putting my makeup on in the mirror, and my kitten Raja — who was only about six months old, she's actually five months old — she attacked him while I was putting makeup on in the mirror, and I turned around and I saw this tiny little kitten just shredding his arm up. And in his hand he was holding his Kimber handgun. And in that moment I was holding my eyeshadow and the sight of it, I just started laughing because it was extremely disturbing and it was alarming. And I walked up to him and I tried to calm him down. And he essentially was telling me over and over again that he was not okay. And I've thought about this a moment many, many times in my life because I was in the room, he was in front of me, and he made his way into the kitchen. And I could have stayed there and gone out the window or something. But I followed him into the kitchen, and he was at the door, and I tried to block the door because it was a Friday night. I lived in a downtown, [in a] college town that has a lively Friday night. There are all these people out. And then he lunged for the door. The next thing I knew, the glass had shattered above me. My ears were ringing. I could see the kitchen window was broken, and the light was blaring — and all of a sudden I was looking up and he was gone. In that moment. That's what I remembered. Later on, many, many months later, I remembered him staring at me. And just looking at me with this blank, bewildered look on his face.
So I was on the floor. I jumped up. And in this moment, I was just pure adrenaline. So I ran into my living room because I was thinking about going out the kitchen door to get out of the house. And I went to my living room and I went to go grab my purse because I had my phone in it, and I kept extending my right arm. And I kept trying to grip, and I looked and I saw that there was about a two inch hole I could see through to the floor. And it took a like a minute or two for me to register that I couldn't pick up my purse because there was a gaping hole in my hand. But I had enough forethought to look at, I had this little throw rug that I didn't want to get blood on. So I hopped over the rug with like a tourniquet in my arm with a sweatshirt, and I ran into the foyer of my apartment. And I open my mouth to scream for help. And I heard him up the street, and there was a commotion up the street. So I heard him. And then as I opened my mouth, blood, teeth, gums, all these things just spilled out of my face. And I realized I absolutely desperately need help as soon as possible.
So I ended up going to three different houses before I finally was able to get help. I knew there were people out when I was getting ready, so it was really bizarre that the whole street was empty as far as I could tell. But my neighbor finally helped me when law enforcement showed up. And to tell the full story of that entire long night of grappling with trying to be questioned by law enforcement; and having them get frustrated because I wasn't able to talk clearly and give them the information they needed; and to have to be airlifted; and to have so many people who are not on top of doing their jobs because it was such a traumatic sight to see my face and me being extremely frustrated, being airlifted — and then waking up three days later after multiple reconstructive surgeries. A third of my face is titanium. I had 11 reconstructive surgeries. Well, 12, actually, if you include all the dental work. 12 reconstructive surgeries on my face and two on my arm.
Then for three years after that, while navigating the court system, trying to find a new place to live, clean up my crime scene, everything else, I moved back to Seattle because I needed resources, because Arnold Schwarzenegger had cut all domestic violence services four months before I was shot because of their budget deficit. And so there was nothing for me where I lived in California. So I moved back there, lived in a shelter. And that's how I got into advocacy, is they were having a lobby day in the legislature, and they needed actual survivors to come down and, you know, see how the legislator works, you know, empower themselves, things like that. And then that started my long, long journey of becoming an advocate.
Devin: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for telling your story there. And like, one of the things you touched on at the end were kind of the resources and largely lack thereof. And so what was your experience with the various resources ranging from the medical professionals, advocates, counselors, and even like with law enforcement going forward? And do you believe the appropriate resources are accessible for survivors — which is a question I'm pretty confident is a resounding no too, but I might as well ask.
Courtney: The short answer is no. The long answer is I learned very, very quickly that there is no infrastructure set up in this country for the massive amount of gun violence victims and survivors that are impacted by this every single day. My shooting itself, the whole situation had my heart broken. That was incredibly traumatizing and just by itself, stand alone. But, the medical bills, the amount of vicarious trauma that the medical field gets from seeing these people, the toll that it takes on them. Law enforcement. I learned later collecting data that, you know, they are most terrified of domestic violence situations because that's the number one way that they're going to die. So they were under stress as well in that moment when I was on the brink of death, I wasn't thinking about how what was happening was impacting anybody else. I was just thinking of how frustrated I was.
I was shot 15 years ago. It depends on the state, but I was shot in 2010, which means that the amount of money that they allotted to victims of violent crimes was $70,000 tops. At that point time it did not include crime scene cleanup. So I had to do that with my aunts, which was very traumatizing. I did not get restitution after my ex was sentenced. That was a systemic failure. Shelters are always overcapacity. Housing is always, always waitlisted in this country, not just for domestic violence victims, but for people who are experiencing all kinds of marginalization.
And the way that I see it is that, you know, the NRA has set up this country just with multiple ways that there's so much denial and so much lack of accountability that all of these organizations, law enforcement, hospitals, domestic violence shelters -- all of this is being saddled by taxpayer dollars. And if that state cuts taxpayer dollars and it comes from private funders, there is a huge dearth. And the way that the gun lobby wants to, they just act like it doesn't exist, that this isn't a problem. And I see that with the way that law enforcement reports on gun violence in general, how much they suppress that data. It's kind of like during the Covid pandemic when they didn't want to do any testing because then we'd find out how many people were actually dying, and they would rather just deny that any of that's an issue because it's way too complicated. And then they'd have to take some accountability, like, yes, maybe guns harm people.
But when I testified in the legislature here last year, and I was in Baton Rouge for that one of the the senators said, "Wow, we haven't even thought about the cost of gun violence and the stress on our system and how much we spend on all these victims of gun violence in this state." Like we haven't even grasped that because they were talking about the cost of the constitutional carry bill. And when you look at it from that very, very large perspective, it seems behemoth because all the stats are out there. Mother Jones did a piece on it a few years ago, but it was I guess it was ten years old. But they talked about the average cost of gun violence per victim. And when you survive gun violence, you have lifelong injuries. You know, I have chronic pain. You know, Wayne Brady — he died from a gunshot wound many, many years after he was shot because it was complications of a gunshot wound. People don't think about that. It's in the news cycle, maybe 1 or 2 weeks. Longer, it's more high profile. Or if the media in the area has the funding to cover and go and do these in-depth articles about that specific shooting.
But you think about every single person who was shot this year. I mean, just domestic violence alone. I pulled the numbers. It's as of today, since January 1st, according to Gun Violence Archive, it's 1606 people have been shot and killed in a domestic violence situation — that's including children, bystanders, things like that. And the thing that I really don't like about the reporting on domestic violence is there's always that there's no threat to the community. It's not it was an isolated incident, meaning that. It happened in a vacuum. No one could have possibly gotten hurt because this was a private matter. But that in itself is a farce, because law enforcement gets shot and killed in domestic violence situations all the time. Neighbors, community members, anyone trying to intervene. It affects the entire community, but there just seems to be this cultural denial that there's a connection between the two.
Devin: Yeah. And when hearing your story, like with him going out the door, my first thought was there's a potential mass shooting that's going to be happening right after and...
Courtney: No, that's what I thought. That's what I thought. That's why I went into the kitchen, you know? And if I were to redo it all, I would do it the same way, because I wouldn't want to just sit in the house, going out there, shooting up the neighborhood. I would have a whole other kind of guilt if that had happened. Now these are all the what ifs of what could have happened. He could have run back in and shot me, or who knows what the alternate outcome would've been if it hadn't played out that way. Because it played up so fast, it was all so instinctual, and a moment of survival that those split second decisions are really hard to to think about what could not have happened or what could have happened.
Caitlin: We talk about the cost of gun violence, Typically at the Center for American Progress conference every year comes up in some way, shape, or form. And Everytown did some research on this a couple of years ago, and they estimated that it was over $500 billion worth. it's not only the the medical bills that we think of at first glance, but also the missed work opportunities, and then the housing insecurity, and the food insecurity, and like all of the things that snowballed from that. And when you're talking about over 100 people a day dying from gun violence, we don't always think about people who are shot and survive — and the impact that has not only on the person who was shot, but all the people around them. So there's the emotional toll for sure, most importantly. But as you said, the financial toll is just so egregious. And you're right, the NRA has made it so we don't really have that in the front of our minds. Right? It's seemingly an afterthought, even though it's a really big problem.
Courtney: They don't want it to be talked about because then they would have to be accountable for that and offer some sort of way to...
Caitlin: Absolutely.
Courtney: Yeah, because it's an industry. It's a huge moneymaking industry. But it makes it makes no sense.
Devin: And speaking of the gun lobby and the NRA, oftentimes we hear the refrain like, Oh if only you had a gun, which of course it should be noted that is definitively a form of victim blaming. But nevertheless, what do you think would have happened in that scenario if you had a gun and took the NRA and gun lobby's advice?
Courtney: Well, the gun was already in the house. I knew where it was. It was something that I had argued with him about. But he was much bigger and stronger than me, which is how he was able to overpower me in that situation. The playing field isn't correct. And you also see many, many cases of women taking it into their own hands. And even, you know, white conservative women in the south who shoot and kill and they claim self-defense. They get sentenced to life in prison. It's a very biased system for domestic violence survivors. If there's any sign of any premeditation whatsoever, they will go to prison. Whereas if it's a man who does it, there's a lot more leeway. And that's something that's like patriarchal, that's built into our society, and that's something that you can't. I mean, they try it. They have trainings with judges all the time, including here in New Orleans. But they try to make it so they're unbiased about that. But there are just certain cultural things within our culture.
We live in a very barbaric culture with a very barbaric history. And adding guns to this equation that are faster, stronger, more deadly, cause more damage. It's really mind boggling to me. I mean, I'm born and raised in the U.S., but it makes zero sense to me. If you look at it from a logical perspective that we have been allowing this to keep happening. The only way I can see it is that it's like an abusive culture where denial and avoidance of accountability are just built into our framework; and they're able to make money off of that by spreading this misinformation that having a firearm as a woman will keep you safer. Because what if a woman feels like she's going to get raped by like a friend or something? I mean, so many of these are premeditated as well. You know, you read about people having guns in their showers, it's like, when you least expect it to happen is when they come for you. When your guard is down. Do we want everyone to have their guard up all the time thinking everyone's out to kill them? That sounds like paranoid schizophrenia. That does not sound like freedom. It doesn't sound like a way that anyone should want to live their lives.
And the threat of gun violence is always there. I think about that cognitive dissonance all the time when I take my son out to do fun things and everything else. There's a sort of buffer I think we develop, even as myself in my experience, where we have to just go along with our lives. Go along with our day. But it's something that keeps me up at night because these are conversations I know I'm going to have to have. I mean, luckily, most of my son's friends' parents don't have guns in their home. But as he gets older, as he goes and hangs out with friends, it's going to be harder and harder to track these things. It's gonna be harder for me to know. And that is the scariest thing because my shooting, it happened to me, and I tell myself over and over and over again, thank God I didn't have a child present in the home when it happened. Thank God no one else was harmed physically. Anyways, it rippled through my community and my family in ways that, you know, it's never going to be the same. But... sorry, I'm having a moment...
Caitlin: No, don't apologize. You're allowed to have as many moments as you need. Please.
Courtney: But whenever I hear that, I just get really exasperated because I just can't believe how many people believe this, will eat this up. And before my shooting, I had an uncle who committed suicide on Thanksgiving. My mom made me stay in the car. It was really, really, really traumatizing. As a kid, she shielded me from most of it, but that harmed my family as well. So I already didn't like guns. I didn't want them around me. But you know, when you're a woman dating in America, it's one of those things that you have to make choices about. And that's a more terrifying choice to be dating someone who's a gun owner after my experience than it is to, you know, worry about STD testing. And that's how much of a threat it is in this world.
And most of the time, yeah, I just compartmentalize what happened, and I just try to live my life with my son and enjoy myself, and not let my past experience oppress me by allowing myself to make really inclusive ideas from multiple forms of data. That's something I got really passionate about in my advocacy was I realized that I didn't have the personality type or the intellectual capability to really be the best shelter advocate because that was more upsetting for me to have someone who's in the same crisis, me trying to be the unbiased person there than it is for me to be on a fatality review and collect that data and make objective decisions and look at it. Something about that helps me reconcile what happened to me. And it brings peace to it because there's a pattern. There's a shape and form to it, and it's not something that just is wild and they snap. It's a very clear narrative that is set forth in the data where you can actually see what we could do if we had the ability to reduce gun violence in our communities across this country.
And if we reduce domestic violence gun violence, we would reduce all gun violence. Think about the Apalachee shooting. We know he grew up in a very abusive home. You know, you see that every single time, that there's the shadow of domestic violence is there. But it's not something the media wants to talk about. It's not something that they even recognize. I've always wanted there to be a a DV system for the AP Style Guide so that these reporters learn — well I actually did find out they are finally teaching that at Columbia. Finally.
Caitlin: You know, we've been lucky to speak to a couple of individuals involved in the media who have talked about responsible journalism when it comes to gun violence or unfortunately, sometimes the lack thereof, but how they're trying to make sure that intention is communicated better. And we're not re-traumatizing families, or families aren't finding out that somebody in their family was killed by the journalists knocking on the door and asking them questions. I mean, things that my brain can't even fathom. But these things happen, unfortunately, all the time.
And, you know, your point about getting lost in the data, that makes a lot of sense to me, right? Because the math, the numbers, the quantitative aspect doesn't lie. It's very straightforward, and it gives your brain a break, I think from trying to fill in all of the pieces and the emotional standpoint that the qualitative side doesn't give you a break from. And our imaginations are powerful things, for better or for worse. So to be able to understand that about yourself and to see that re-traumatizing yourself every time that you're working with someone who's in the same situation that you might have been and then going the data out — I think that's very impressive to me, and shows a lot about your tenacity, because I know that not all people would be able to kind of pivot in that that situation. So please do give yourself a lot of credit for that.
Courtney: Thank you. For me, the end goal of doing it is, you know, ultimately, you know, you say I don't want this to happen to anyone else. And that's the simple answer to it. But ultimately, I think there's so much that could be done from a bipartisan angle, from a public health perspective that haven't even been considered. Because of the way that we report on domestic violence, because of the way that the data has been applied in the past. And even from the side of the laws that we're trying to get passed, some of them are not the most effective to reducing gun violence, in my opinion. And I really think the future for reducing gun violence in this country is through the public health perspective, which is heavily reliant on data. And what do we know about gun violence in public health is that there has been an active suppression of this data for 30 years in the midst of how much it has skyrocketed when it comes to domestic violence, homicides, and things like that.
Devin: And to kind of go back real quick as well to your points on barbarity, like it reminds me of a couple things. And one is like, was the whole NRA like, You should just have a gun. Like that's not a remotely healthy way for a relationship to where like one person or both people are like, If the other person does something, I need to be ready at all moments to kill them. Like, that's just not a way that people interact with like anybody.
Courtney: The building block of trust is gone in that scenario?
Devin: Yeah. The building block of trust is the gun. So it's truly like if you think for more than a few moments, like, Yeah, that doesn't make sense.
Caitlin: #merica.
Courtney: I love my husband, but I always stay armed in case he comes after me in the middle of the night, got my gun ready.
Devin: Yeah. And then, like, the other component is, like you mentioned the bullet type with your story, and just going to the NRA convention and seeing this kind of arms race of bullets to try and make them more lethal. And the salesperson just telling me, Yeah, this bullet's perfect for a high stress environment like an inner city or a courthouse. And just like this is the only product I can think of in America that is sold with the main selling point being how effectively it kills Americans — and it's just barbarous. And yet there's so much focus and marketing in that sense to where it's like, yeah, it's all what the shooter can do to the person, and with no consideration of who the person on the other side may be.
Courtney: So yeah, it makes it more it's almost like an entertainment industry, like that's our biggest export that we've had over the years. And the way that I see that kind of culture within the gun culture is that it's just like a video game, like it is not taking into account the value of human life or the value of the lives surrounding that life that you're fantasizing about taking. It's just this hero fantasy, like really twisted hero fantasy. And me personally, maybe I'm just too empathetic and too sensitive, but I could never take the life of someone else, even if they were coming after me. I could never do that. I don't want to have someone else's blood on my hands.
Caitlin: Right, absolutely.
Courtney: That's not the way you solve problems. In my experience, that's like ultimate escalation to like 0 to 100 is, I know I'll get my gun, instead of trying all these different avenues. I mean, that's not harm reduction, that is harm escalation. It's about making the most powerful choice from the get go.
Caitlin: Right. And it's not reversible, and we don't have the training for it. And we talk about teachers and arming teachers, and you're putting them in the position where, unfortunately, a lot of these shootings that happen in schools are done by current students or former students. And in the chaos of everything, you don't know where the shooting started, where it came from, who has a gun. And we say, Well let's arm the teachers. Like you're going to have a teacher just decide in a split second, Alright now is my opportunity to kill the student who may or may not be responsible for coming in here and shooting classmates or other teachers. I mean, it really makes no sense whatsoever. Like you're saying you can't put the pieces together to make one plus one equal two in this situation.
Devin: And like the kind of aspect of that as well is like it's the constant othering of like whoever's going to be on the other side of the gun. Like it's this, Oh there's good guys and there's bad guys and there's a clear, bright line there. And so we only care about what happens to the good guys but not the bad guys. And it's this constant refrain of like, Oh it's the potential for strangers to do this, like in the school shooting or even like most shootings where it's like, Oh it's going to be this outside force. It's almost never the outside force. It's almost always somebody you know, somebody you are emotionally connected with. And then asking like the teacher in this scenario, Are you prepared to shoot a student; or like a victim of domestic violence, Are you ready to shoot a loved one? Like there's just not a recognition of the ask, and the solution being provided is death. I feel all three of us could rant on this for an hour.
Courtney: Yeah. Well, you know, and even Iraq, like I think during the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, like two thirds of injuries in that war were from friendly fire because they were mistaking other soldiers in the area for being insurgents, as it were. And these are people who are trained extensively. And there's still a large disproportionate amount of error in war. So in an everyday day-to-day situation where you're not preparing for war every day. I mean, some people in this country do. That's the same people we're talking about. But most people don't. And, you know, if a teacher were to do that, they would very most likely end up hitting someone else and killing someone else. And then it's just a bloodbath. Like you see it like the shootouts are always the wildest to think about because there's so many guns going off. Nobody knows really what's going on. It leads to so much more carnage.
Caitlin: If you could share one thing or one piece of advice with someone going through this type of situation right now, let's say they're listening to this podcast. What would it be?
Courtney: So I thought about this question. So we always put the onus of responsibility. of violence happening on the person who is the victim of the violence. So I think there's a lot of responsibility to prevent something from being done to you by the active, horrible, violent party. I would say someone who's in a domestic violence situation that it's incredibly difficult to leave. There's a lot of isolation already. And to continue reaching out to people and to not keep it private. I mean, unfortunately, just with how our culture is built, there is a lot of shame in that. There's a lot of rejection, there's a lot of things that people say that are incredibly harmful, that it ends up making the violence worse. People are pretty set in their beliefs about these things, too.
But I would say, number one is know that it's not your fault, and there's nothing you did to deserve that. Nobody shows up on a first date and punches you in the face. They're always wonderful in the beginning. I mean, that's how they get you. And, you know, an abusive person is a human being, and they are multifaceted. And that dark, violent part of themselves, they keep tucked away and hidden from everyone else. And so, to be in the midst of all that is incredibly gaslighting, for one, But it's incredibly confusing, and you don't really realize when you're in it. And so try to reach out to local domestic violence shelters, starting out just by talking with them, even if things haven't escalated to the point of life or death yet. It's a process. It grows. And speaking with an advocate and working with a therapist can help unpack a lot of that and make it easier to set up a plan.
But it's incredibly difficult and complicated to leave. Which is why a lot of women stay, because financial abuse is always one of the main facets of control. And it's incredibly hard, especially with children, to get away from someone who is being abusive. And I think a lot of people don't take that to account. You know, I'm sure there are millions of women in this country who are silently battling with domestic violence at home and feel completely trapped. And so I would say not only to the person going through it, but to friends and family members of someone who is experiencing this, is that reach out to them again and again, continue to keep tabs on them, and try to do what you can. Do your best to keep yourself safe. But, you know, it takes a community and a village to free yourself from something. I know there's a lot of times when family members always wonder what they could do. It's also really sad when friends and family of victims say that they tried and they weren't able to. But still, at the end of the day, the person who was responsible for that heinous act is the person who committed it, not anyone else around them. That's on them. Because I've had really traumatic situations in my life, and I'm not out there hurting other people. It's a choice.
Caitlin: You mentioned before, the aspect of having children, either present in the situation of violence or what's leading up to that. And we know, unfortunately, a lot of times victims will say or family members of the victims will say, Well, the partner threatened to harm the kids or take the kids...
Courtney: They do that all the time! That's one of their things.
Caitlin: And and that's why this mother was like, well, I'm going to stay, right? I don't have the resources to go to court to fight for custody. And this person's a monster. And I would rather be here to make sure that my children are safe. And as a mom, I can certainly empathize with that. So Courtney, where can our listeners follow you, learn more about your work or learn more about your music?
Courtney: My music is on Apple.com. It's Paper Tiger — an EP that I recorded in 2016, a blues/pop album about my experience with gun violence and domestic violence. It's available for streaming on there. It's also available on Spotify, I'm pretty sure, yeah, it's available on there. And any other streaming service. Yeah, YouTube has it streaming.
Caitlin: Awesome. We'll certainly put a link for for our listeners so that they can jump on their. Any final thoughts you would like to leave with us today before we wrap up?
Courtney: I think I've covered everything. Just about how important it is for the culture to shift. You know, all the moving parts of the system and the media kind of help shape the narrative of how we cover these incidents, which influences policy, which influences legislation, which influences hopefully many years down the road how we can actively, truly reduce the gun violence and domestic violence in our communities.
Caitlin: Well, again, thank you not only for joining us, but for your advocacy. And you have been such a champion for survivors, and we look forward to seeing all of the work that you will continue to do. And please take care of yourself, and enjoy whatever train adventures you may come across with your your little one. It's always so fun to try to see the worlds through through their eyes.
Devin: I remember being obsessed with trains at that age too.
Courtney: I love them. I'm kind of obsessed now.
Caitlin: Yes, that's so fun. Alright, well, thanks again. And we will catch up with you soon, Courtney.
Courtney: All right. Thank you so much for having me. Take care.
Devin: Thank you.
Top photo by Austin Jenkins For NW Newswire; photos courtesy of Courtney Weaver.