Armed with Reason: The Podcast - Episode 8
Hosts Devin Hughes and Caitlin Clarkson Pereira talk about their trip to last week's National Gun Violence Prevention Summit in D.C., and exciting news from GVPedia.
(L-R) Devin Hughes, Caitlin Clarkson Pereira
For our latest podcast, GVPedia founder, Devin Hughes, and Executive Director, Caitlin Clarkson Pereira, discuss their recent trip to Washington, D.C. for the 9th Annual National Gun Violence Prevention Summit — created and hosted by the public policy research and advocacy organization, Center for American Progress (CAP). They also introduce GVPedia’s exciting new project to help combat the gun lobby’s lies: the Data Visualization tool, or Data Viz.
You can listen to the chat via our channel on Spotify, as well as watch on YouTube, or read the transcription, below.
We hope you’ll tune in and let us know not only what you think, but what you’d like to hear more about in the future. And if you are interested in recommending a guest, or even being one yourself, please let us know!
Given the abundance of gun violence in our country, it is critical to have the ability to discuss and advocate for a safer community. This podcast is one more way for the movement to do just that.
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION:
Caitlin: Everyone, thank you for joining us back here on the Armed With Reason podcast. And we are excited to share with you a little bit about a conference that we went to last week. But before we get into that, I want to say hi to Devin, who's here with me again, as always.
Devin: Yes, it's me again.
Caitlin: Yes. So we, me and Devin and our other members of the GVPedia team, and actually hundreds of G.V. gun violence prevention advocates, spent a couple of days together in Washington, D.C. last week for the Ninth Annual Center for American Progress, which we call CAP, Gun Violence Prevention Summit. So both Devin and I have been to this conference before, and every year there's lots of critical topics to learn about. Some things are just updates on certain components of the movement; others are new ideas that are brought to the table. But it's always invigorating and powerful. And obviously it's really important to have us all in the same space to be able to brainstorm and share best practices.
So this year, just to give listeners a general idea of some of the topics that we discussed, we focused on the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act -- probably not a surprise as that is something that folks are excited about -- but also the long term impacts of gun violence on communities and community-based violence intervention programs. So really looking at the big picture of gun violence in this country. So Devin and I decided that the Armed With Reason podcast was the perfect place to review some things that we talked about, some things that we learned, some things that stood out to us at the CAP conference. So here we are. So, Devin, I'm going to start off and ask you, I think you've been attending this conference since 2015. Is that right?
Devin: Yes. I've been to seven of these. So there's a little gap during the pandemic where my whole life ground to a halt.
Caitlin: Yes. Yes. So, withstanding the pandemic years, you've been heading to this every year since 2015. Was there anything that stood out to you this year that you would say was different than in years past?
Devin: Um, yeah, there's a few things. One thing that usually comes across during the conference but was even more so this year is just how large the meeting is, and how many people attend. Like so many people attend now that not everybody is able to go to the CAP conference itself. And so there's a bunch of other events circulating around the CAP conference. And so there are hundreds of people from across the country that attend. And I think it's just a testament to how large the gun violence prevention movement has grown -- which is both a positive, in the sense that there's more people now than ever advocating to change laws to life saving laws across the country, as well as to reduce gun violence. But it's also depressing in a sense, because most of the new faces there are there because they've lost someone. And so it's an ever growing club -- and club's not the best word for it -- that nobody wants to be a part of. And so there's that sort of having this that hangs over the conference that's balanced by just everybody getting to meet each other in person and recognizing that we're not alone in this struggle. When you're in a red state like Oklahoma, you tend to forget that you're not the only one, or one of a handful of people, and that there really is a broad network out there that's ready and willing to support. It's just, all of that coming together in D.C. can produce quite profound effects. And that was the case this year as well. So what were some of your thoughts, Caitlin?
Caitlin: Well, yeah, just to echo what you said, there is quite this juxtaposition, right? There's this overwhelming feeling of sadness in some of these sessions. And for me, this feeling of wanting to fix everything and knowing that I can't fix everything is really hard. But at the same time, it's also an opportunity to to give hugs and smiles and to meet people who you converse with sometimes on a daily basis in a in a myriad of different ways to, you know, that we all interact together to help bring an end to gun violence. So it is a very, it's a strange feeling, right? I always sort of toy with my emotions and and how I should feel. And I think that's okay, right? I've given myself grace and acknowledged that that's just how this conference is. But for me -- and again, mixed emotions on this -- I was in a way thankful that part of the conference really focused on gun violence in Latino communities and in Latin American countries, because it's something that we know is an issue, but I don't think we talk about nearly enough. At the same time, it is really staggering and shocking to hear some of the statistics about the guns that are manufactured in the United States and the carnage they're responsible for in other countries, particularly in Mexico. So, lax gun laws and import regulations, which is certainly not my, or export regulations, which is certainly not my area of expertise, but are responsible for ATF was tracking numbers and of of guns recovered in crimes in Mexico. 70% of them are from the United States. And in the Dominican Republic, it's 75%. And hearing that. Is one of those moments of the conference and in life where you just, I don't know, I just sighed because it's like, wow, this is an issue that we know causes so much death and destruction in this country, and how have we somehow become responsible now for so much death and destruction in it and in neighboring countries, and across the globe? And now that we're responsible for that, how do we pick up those pieces and try to right the wrongs that we've created? Of course, those are open-ended questions. I have no idea. I don't know the answers to those. I'm just throwing them out there. But certainly the things that, you know, I don't have any shame in admitting sort of keep me up at night. Right? Like, how how did it get this out of control? That we are responsible for such devastation in other country?
Devin: I think one of the things to add on to that is that emphasizes the importance of the work we do. Because it's not just us and the U.S. If we were to fix the U.S. gun violence problem overnight tomorrow, it'd be like, congratulations. That's step one in terms of the damage the gun lobby has inflicted because we're now exporting America's gun violence across the world. And we have been for a while in countries like Mexico. But we're adding to that list in countries across Latin America and even places like Europe, in terms of the ideology behind more guns everywhere. And it's harrowing to see.
And I think it also leads back to one of the other depressing aspects of the conference. But can hopefully have like produced some positive outcomes, recognizing that this work is exhausting and tiring, and that burnout is a major problem in the gun violence prevention movement that we still haven't fixed. And I know that there's plenty of faces that used to go to these conferences that don't any longer. They just couldn't, based on their mental health. And that's completely understandable. But also, like both sadly and comfortingly, there's a lot of people in the same boat of like on the edge of burnout or experiencing that, and knowing that does provide a sense of comfort in that you're not in this alone. And also, as a note to treat everybody in the movement with kindness and grace. And recognize that not only just for survivors, which is massively difficult, but also for people who aren't survivors even -- dealing with the years upon years of accumulated trauma of working in this space is a lot. But if we work together as a community we can help alleviate that, I feel. And that's one of the more powerful things coming out of CAP, is just being in the presence of so many others working towards a common cause helps alleviate that.
Caitlin: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, props to CAP for having a licensed counselor all the days of the conference right on site there, right? Knowing that if anybody has a moment where they need, they called it a quiet space, right? If you need a moment for some quiet or you need to speak to somebody that they have the resources available for that. So we understand the weight of this topic. And it certainly is comforting to know that others understand that as well.
So we're going to shift gears a little bit and talk about one of the breakout sessions specifically. Which was titled Facts Over Fiction: Responding to the Gun Lobby's Talking Points. So myth busting and responding to disinformation is at the heart of GVPedia. That's why one of the reasons why you founded it six years ago. So can you take a minute to highlight a few ways to respond to gun lobby talking points?
Devin: Yeah. And so just to mention, the panel was led by GVPedia board member, Alison Jordan. So shout out to her. She did a fantastic job with the interactive session. And one of the things that it highlighted to me is the continuing importance of the countering the firehose of falsehood framework that we've developed at GVPedia. And the importance of basically any sort of interaction, step one is building like a bridge of trust between people. If you don't have an element of trust and understanding with somebody, you're not going to make much progress. It's basically the equivalent of going on to Twitter and trying to hit somebody over the head with a bunch of facts or emotions. It's not going to work. But if you've already established a dialog and some element of trust, you to move to step two, which is also crucial, which is listening to the other person. Most people in life just want to be heard and understood. And giving the other person in a conversation a chance to be heard is actually a great, debunking and myth-busting tool. Having somebody explain why they believe what they believe will allow you to figure out where they're coming from on the issue and also any potential holes or myths that they might believe that can then later be corrected. And after you listen to somebody fully, then you can introduce facts and figures in step three; and not trying to convert somebody from being a diehard Trump supporter to super liberal in one conversation, because that's just not going to happen. But allowing somebody to change your views on this single subject within a confined space of just not having to change your entire ideological outlook. But just one thing about firearms that can be enough to create a difference. And then after you have somebody on your side, then it's time to move to a single emotional narrative to try to. get them more involved.
And so using that four-step process that we outlined in countering the firehose of falsehood. It's quite important and still needed because there's tons of questions during it where it's, like, people wonder how when many women are now going and buying firearms, or how people in the Jewish community, given the rise of anti-Semitism, are rushing to buy firearms because they feel they have no other option. And people seem to be at a loss of like, what do we do here? Because we can say the statistics over and over again that like a firearm in the home doubles the risk of homicide, triples the risk of suicide. But it doesn't seem to have much of an impact, at least when it's not properly positioned in an overall framework. And so that framework and how to have those conversations is more important than ever. And unfortunately, even though the gun violence prevention movement I feel is stronger and larger than ever, it's also quite fragile, and we're still at a certain level losing with more than half of Americans now owning firearms, according to some polls and majorities of Americans feeling that a gun makes them safer. We're going to have to address those central problems in order to make progress on this issue. And it's going to be a long process over another five, ten, 15, 20 years. And that can be daunting. But there's a lot of people in this space willing to commit to the long term. So should all of us.
Caitlin: Yeah, absolutely. We we have a report on the firehose of falsehood which we published... last year?
Devin: Yeah, last year.
Caitlin: All blends together. So that is on our website if anybody would like to to look into that. Got some really useful information. Devin, I think something that you said in the session when we were in DC, which was really critical, is if somebody presents something to you that you know is not true, sure you could say like, That's not true! You know, they've been lying to you, or you don't know the facts, or whatever. That's not going to go over very well. But just one really simple thing that you suggested was maybe say to them like, oh, let's try to find the answer together. And that allows them to feel empowered, because then when they go to find the real numbers or statistics behind something related to guns, it's not just you informing them -- they were in control, right? And they took it upon themselves maybe with a little guidance from you to find the answer. And that obviously doesn't just work in the gun violence prevention world. That works in a lot of places, probably in parenting as well. So maybe I'll give it a try there and let everyone on the podcast know how that works out too. But really basic human communication and group dynamics at play in how the firehose of falsehood works. So I think what we put together is is really important for people to to take an opportunity to look over. And if anyone wants more details about the firehose of falsehood, Devin is always willing and able to give a rundown of the more intricate details of that.
So it would be remiss of us not to talk about the survivors because they are the biggest part of this movement. They are the biggest part of the conference. And what's actually really fascinating about the timing of how all of this plays out is there's the CAP conference for a couple of days. There are some other events mixed in with that. But there is the national vigil for victims of gun violence -- mainly organized by Newtown Action Alliance. But there are lots of organizations that participate in putting that or sponsoring that, I should say. But then at the very end, for survivors, what they spend time doing is they head to Capitol Hill to speak with elected officials about gun violence, and hoping to address some of the issues that we have, and have conversations that might lead to better gun violence prevention legislation being put into play. So what sort of impact do you believe these stories told by survivors have on the movement?
Devin: I think for the movement to leave it upon legislators, even if it might not look like it for legislators on occasion, they do have a massive impact. I mean, survivors are the heart of the gun violence prevention movement. And those of us who aren't survivors, like myself, the reason we do what we do is to help survivors. And just having their voices and their ability to show up in space that cares about them is super important. And then to be able to turn that tragedy into advocacy at the Capitol is also crucial. And each of those conversations -- while one conversation alone is unlikely to change somebody's mind -- like the more those conversations are had will have an impact overall. And then when those stories are combined with facts and figures that are provided, they provide an even more powerful narrative going forward. But you can't have that narrative without the underlying stories. How about you?
Caitlin: Yeah. I mean, every year I am I am just so beyond impressed with the survivors and the bravery they show, the compassion they show one another, and their ability to have these powerful conversations and to have these moments with us as advocates and educators, but also to take that to Capitol Hill, right? It's some of them, you know, we're in sessions all day Tuesday and Wednesday. They go to Capitol Hill on Thursday. That's a lot. It's a lot. It's a big, extroverted effort for a handful of days. And obviously, the topic is incredibly heavy. And it is really hard to imagine what it's like to have to share such a tragic story over and over and over again. Although I do really see that the energy and the passion that these survivors have to make sure that, like that club you mentioned before, that nobody else joins that club. And without them, you know, we could work 24/7, and I really don't think we would be making progress, especially on the federal level or typically, you know, in the red states, which typically are a lot harder to have legitimate conversations about gun violence prevention and the legislative impact that that laws can have. And it's just it's really shocking to me to just to watch them there. They're really, incredible doesn't even feel like like enough of a compliment for them. They just, they keep going. And I'm just so proud to to know them and to be able to work alongside them. And it's really something special to see the passion that they they bring and the difference that they make. So any other thoughts? Anything else that you want to share about our adventures in Washington D.C.?
Devin: We did have a data hour at the very beginning.
Caitlin: We did -- yes!
Devin: So we were one of the surrounding events. Yeah. We had about 30 people show up, which was a fantastic crowd there. And we got to highlight our data visualization project, which is now live and will be continuously improving over the coming months. So if you're interested in that hop over to gvpedia.org and click on the data viz, and you can explore that data.
Caitlin: The timing was serendipitous for the data visualization and for us to be in D.C. And it was really great to see everybody together, and some folks we hadn't seen since I hadn't seen since Covid. So to have us there in the same space and to show them how the data visualization works and the excitement that some of them had, and to know that some of the statistics -- that they normally would have been manually pulling -- that they can use the data visualization for it in like 15 seconds, have exactly what they need. Definitely gave some some positive energy to to the time that we were there. So yeah, it was it was great to see everyone, and like Devin said we're going to going to be officially rolling that out after the holidays. So we will have, you won't be able to miss it. You will know what's happening for sure! But for now it is it is live on the website, and hopefully people who are listening to this will go and check that out and let us know if there's anything that they need, any improvements that they'd like to see. Like Devin said, we're going to take the opportunity to continuously change things for the better. So it's a better tool for folks to use.
Awesome. All right, well, I'm going to wrap this up and say that while it was awesome to see everybody in D.C., I am grateful to be home. And I look forward to our opportunity to get together and to plan and to share stories and then figure out how to better the movement again next year. But until then, there's an infinite amount of things to do. So we'll keep working. And I hope everyone has a wonderful holiday, who's listening, Devin -- you too, out there in Oklahoma.
Devin: In the deep red state of Oklahoma.
Caitlin:Yes. But thank you, everyone, for listening to this podcast and for supporting us here at Armed With Reason. And we will catch up with everybody after the holidays.
Devin: Perfect. Happy holidays, everyone.
Image courtesy of Eric Davidson.