Armed with Reason: The Podcast - Episode 4
Armed with Reason: The Podcast - Episode 4
This week's guest is activist and survivor, Jordan Gomes.
In our latest podcast, hosts Devin Hughes and Caitlin Clarkson Pereira are joined by activist and Sandy Hook survivor, Jordan Gomes.
You can listen to the chat via our channel on Spotify, as well as watch on YouTube.
We hope you’ll tune in and let us know not only what you think, but what you’d like to hear more about in the future. And if you are interested in recommending a guest, or even being one yourself, please let us know!
Given the abundance of gun violence in our country, it is critical to have the ability to discuss and advocate for a safer community. This podcast is one more way for the movement to do just that.
INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPTION:
Caitlin Clarkson Pereira: Hi, everyone. Thanks again for joining us here on the Armed with Reason podcast, brought to you by GVPedia. Today I'm here with Devin per usual. Devin. I think this is our fourth episode already!
Devin Hughes: Something like that. Wow, it's me again.
Caitlin: Again, I'm proud of us for for getting this going and keeping on with it. I think it's really important for the movement to have this space. So kudos to us and to those who are allowing us to interview them, and to our listeners for participating in this. So we are joined today for an interview with Jordan Gomes. Jordan is a junior at Fordham University, and she currently serves as the outreach director for the Newtown Action Alliance, which is a gun violence prevention organization that was created after the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting. So we're just going to jump right in Jordan. And if you don't mind, please tell us a little bit about yourself and the work that you are doing.
Jordan Gomes: Yeah, of course. Well, first of all, thank you guys so much for having me. I just finished saying that I think a space like this is so, so important to have and also that I, like I said, I'm a little bit not great with technology, so I'm glad somebody else has started it and then it's really taking off for you guys. Like I said, I am the outreach director with the Newtown Action Alliance. I've worked with them for about six years now, I think. I'm 20 and a junior at Fordham University, but I began my work with them when I was a freshman in high school, which seems like forever ago now. And just this past summer, I served as the outreach director, but also took care of their legislative efforts in D.C., specifically lobbying for Congressman Maxwell Ross’ Office for Gun Violence Prevention Bill, which was honestly, I think, one of the most impactful experiences I've had since joining this movement. I got involved with Newtown Action after surviving the Sandy Hook shooting when I was nine and really growing up with this feeling that I had to do something about it; that I had all these feelings and thoughts and emotions and beliefs that I needed to put out into the world, not just in speaking and with activism, but just a belief that we can always do better as a society, and that we owe it to one another to strive for peace and for nonviolence. So that's really why I got involved with this. And I think this bill specifically has really helped me fulfill a lot of that sort of desire within myself, because inherently, it is a bill focused around data collection and research and really understanding the epidemic that is gun violence and tackling it in all its forms.
Caitlin: Absolutely. That's a great introduction. And thank you for your advocacy over the years since you were a freshman. But I'm sure you even were part of the movement in a myriad of ways, well before you were a freshman in high school. So thank you for doing all of that. But can you tell us a little bit more specifically about the Office of Gun Violence Prevention, why it's so important, what it would do, what its purpose might be?
Jordan: Yeah, of course. So this bill creates a sort of federal clearinghouse, so to speak, for gun violence prevention data in all its forms. At a depth we'd really not ever seen. Researching gun violence has always been a difficult aspect of this issue for a number of reasons. And one of it, honestly, it touches on one of the first reasons why I believe this bill is very important is that it establishes a federal data set that is backed by members of Congress, both the House and the Senate, that members of Congress can use to create meaningful and equitable legislation surrounding gun violence. I mean, I think we all have experience with the idea that, you know, you lay your facts and figures out on the table when it comes to gun violence. You say, you know, guns are the number one killer of kids in the United States or a hundred people die per day, or, you know, the leading cause of gun deaths is suicide. And many people who consider themselves on the other side of the gun violence prevention movement will say things like, well, it's not always that simple. Our statistics say otherwise. This is what we believe. So first of all, establishing a federal data set to go off of really eliminates a lot of that back and forth discourse, because at the end of the day, you know, I'm sure you both can relate and some of the other people listening can also probably relate. I don't think there's that much that can be done by really going back and forth over semantics like this. I think we have work to do, and I think that we can acknowledge that there's a problem here and that establishing that pattern and that problem with data that is first of all, this bill is not established by the executive, which works. I'll get into that in just a moment. But it shows that members of Congress from both sides of the aisle are coming together to push forward this research based bill and to look for solutions for gun violence that are statistically backed. And once again, it goes through the House and then the Senate or it goes to Congress, rather than being pushed forth through the executive, for which, as far as I am, I was made aware, was done for a couple of reasons. One is that obviously there is some push back with executive overreach in the past couple of years, specifically by Republican members of Congress. And we want to avoid that. And second of all, something I question. I actually got a lot during these meetings that I took over the summer was why can't Biden do this? Why can't the Executive just establish this office? And the truth is, is that it's quite literally out of his wheelhouse. This is establishing a federal office within the Department of Justice that aims to research and tackle gun violence as an issue. And simply put, he doesn't have the power to establish that office. If he were to create a position within his cabinet, that would be another story. But like we said, we're kind of staying away from something like that just to make sure that this is a bipartisan effort that once when and if this office is established, that it becomes reality because of the work on both sides. So I think those are the main two points I've been discussing with people who are interested in this stuff.
Devin: And so thank you for that introduction to the Office. So kind of why I'm wondering is or I imagine many people are wondering is like, why do we need such an office if we have we have like FBI statistics and CDC statistics and universities like Harvard, University of California, and others that are kind of doing this work? And also, I'm kind of curious about like the sort of bipartisanship, because back in the early 1990s, you had the Republican Congress basically object to the CDC studying gun violence and gave them a very thinly veiled threat to stop doing this. And they pulled the exact dollar figure from their budget that had gone into studying gun violence. And so, like, how would this kind of work given that historical context?
Jordan: Yeah, of course. So I'll start with why this is really needed. And it kind of ties in to this idea that the research that we've been looking for for so long, this truly in-depth research that goes much farther than a lot that can be done by nonprofits or non-government entities is, believe it or not, the majority of research about gun violence comes from the nonprofit sector, which, given the scope of this issue, is definitely quite unique. Having all of this office and all this information in one space makes it a lot easier to create the sort of meaningful and effective legislation that we're looking for when it comes to gun violence, because obviously a one size fits all approach does not work. And something that I talked about a lot, especially in offices. You know, I'm from Connecticut. I go to school in New York. I've been on the East Coast my entire life. There's a lot I don't know about gun violence and also gun culture speaking, you know, as somebody whose family was never particularly involved with guns and hearing from other people who come from, say, across the United States or even very close to me, but they had a very different perspective on it. It allows us to really ensure that the depth of the information is complete. That's the way I can say, most simply put anyways. Additionally, there's not a lot of cross-sector communication, believe it or not, between these governmental organizations that really take on gun violence prevention research. The FBI, DOJ, etc., they all conduct things smaller pieces of the puzzle in terms of what their specialties are when it comes to attacking gun violence. But it is my belief, it is Congressman Frost's, belief, as he stated when he was addressing this and introducing this bill, and the belief of many other GVP organizations that we need an office like this not only to gather all this information into one place and to ensure that when we put out these data sets, we say, you know, this is federally backed, this is supported by members of Congress, this is funded by the federal government, and that it's reputable. We're also saying that we need a little bit more than what we're getting, if that makes sense. You know, the CDC, you're right, the CDC was unfortunately barred from researching gun violence with the Dickey Amendment. And this bill is a pretty good workaround to that, in my opinion, because obviously it doesn't pertain just to the CDC. It involves gathering all the information that's already either being gathered by other governmental entities or even going into new sectors that we really haven't explored before. I mean, for example, we do know that suicides make up a vast majority of gun deaths, but something that isn't talked about a lot is that a lot of those suicides, sometimes in some areas an overwhelming majority, are current or retired service members; and that in rural areas, young men are actually most prone to suicide. We know these statistics, but are we using them in a way that can help create legislation that attacks it effectively, attacks the root of this issue? Because at the end of the day, like I said, gun culture and gun violence are very, very much, you know, they're meshed together and you can't really talk about one without talking about the other. And a one size fits all approach doesn't always work. So working to ensure that all of this information is in one place and that it's gathered from people from all walks of life and from all sides, sides, quote unquote, of this issue, all people who experience all aspects of gun violence. Because, you know, I'm a mass shooting survivor. Much of the work that I do is focused on mass shootings and their effects. However, domestic violence, suicide, what we call symptoms, urban violence, gang violence, all and a million other different points and million other different, how do you say, branches on the tree, let's say that, are equally as important to be talked about. But unfortunately, they don't get all the attention that they need all of the time. And so this office would definitely ensure that there's people who work and people whose job it is to look at gun violence in all of its forms, address it, and then once again use this information that would be gathered to make policy recommendations to the Executive and to Congress, which is something that's never been done before. I know it's a bit of a ramble, so my apologies, but...
Caitlin: No, no apology is needed. That's really thorough, and all of what you said is really important for sure.
Devin: We're very used to me rambling and trying to argue for a two hour long podcast. So no worries.
Caitlin: Don't worry listeners, that's not that's not going to be a thing, okay?
Devin: Yeah. And to take a step back, like I do definitely feel that having a clearinghouse of that fashion is quite important. Like one of the things that we do at GVPedia is we have the largest publicly available gun study database in existence, with more than 2000 academic studies on gun violence. And then we have white papers and fact sheets translating that. But there's a ton more work that can be done in that area. And even if it just is collecting all the evidence and then trying to figure out how best to use it is such a critical role in something the government should be doing and not like small nonprofits, frankly.
Jordan: Absolutely. And I think it also plays a lot into the public perception of how the United States government is handling this epidemic. It's very much uniquely American. No other country experiences gun violence at the rates that we do. And, you know, speaking to that, if you saw a gun violence fact sheet, but you saw that it was put out by, say, the NRA, that might raise a few red flags, you might say, well, is this pushing any sort of agenda? Is this credible? What is their purpose in disseminating this information? And, you know, I always imagine that it's for people who maybe are not on our side of things, it's probably the same thing. They see the statistics put out by Everytown, March for Our Lives, the Brady Campaign, etc. — these very large organizations that are very well known for their work for gun violence prevention — and say, Well, they have an agenda, they have this, you know? And I think, and especially like you said, every nonprofit putting in the work is great. And it's good that we have so many people that are so dedicated to researching this issue when quite literally there's even the government is not to its full potential. But it's about creating a universally agreed upon — to the best that we can — data set, and also ensuring that this conversation is as inclusive as it can be, which is definitely, and I think because this bill is inherently extremely inclusive of, like I said, not just the conversations that come out of gun violence in all of its forms, but also how it relates to gun culture. This bill has gone over extremely well on the Hill, at least when I was lobbying for it.
Devin: That's great to hear. And so, anyway I'm interested in the opposite of sorts where like, things didn't go quite as well. So I'm kind of curious what sort of talking points would arise for the people who are opposed to such an office; and kind of what role does countering disinformation around this, as well as just gun violence in general, play in the advocacy not only for this bill but also what you do day to day?
Jordan: Well, I'm pretty pleased to say that I think I took 72, 73, something in the low seventies — I counted out recently — meetings over the summer between June and July with all of those offices, a few with members themselves, and I did not have any overwhelmingly negative perception. And honestly, I've been on the Hill many times before, especially lobbying for other gun violence prevention bills, I think most notably red flag laws, background checks, the assault weapons ban, etc.. And the reception for this bill. I've already said it was so overwhelmingly positive, not just in comparison to the others that I've worked on. I've never been praised on my delivery of a bill by a Republican office before, and I made it 100% a point of mine about, I would say half or even slightly more of those meetings that I took were with Republican offices. And I took that as honestly a good sign to begin with. You know, if my foot was in the door, I was walking in there and, you know, I might have been in a meeting with a staffer, and we might never get a co-sponsor out of them, and they might not be interested. But we still took that meeting and we still got to know them, got to hear where their priorities were on gun violence. Because I think a bill like this, you know, if you want to know the talking points in terms of what they weren't quite so fond of, I would say, you know, obviously a bill like this requires — and unfortunately I can't answer too many questions about this, it might be a little bit over my head — but you know what the budget looks like for a bill like this. You know, it is creating an office within the Department of Justice. It's not exactly the cheapest thing in the world. And many Republicans, especially those on appropriations, were concerned about what this bill would cost. But, you know, of course, gun violence costs the United States billions of dollars every single year. And I don't just include, you know, when I say billions of dollars, I don't mean, for example, razing and rebuilding buildings that a mass shooting occurred in. And I mean things like people who take time off from work because a family member or a, you know, a loved one passed away due to suicide. I also mean loss of productivity overall in communities where a mass shooting takes place or even in, for example, in terms of domestic violence, somebody who is under the threat of intimidation and no longer works a job. You know, all of these things can combat or it can contribute to, excuse me, this enormous cost that gun violence inflects upon everyone. And, you know, I would always say, of course, this is, I don't want to shout sounds short-sighted because I'm not on appropriations and I'm not the one that is deciding what this will cost and if we're going to go through with it. But, you know, I don't think there's a price tag on human lives that we can really put that way. You know, I don't think when we see things like this, we should say, well, how much is this going to cost us? We should look at how much is it already costing us? How much does it cost every day? And I just went over some economic impacts, but not to mention just I mean, I saw it with my community firsthand how an event like a mass shooting can absolutely shatter an American community. And it happens every single day. Just a couple of days ago, there was a shooter at UNC Chapel Hill. I have friends that go there and, you know, just. I don't know. Like, I can't even I think I'll stop before I get, like, too far into it. But I think the economic impact and budgeting was a big question. You know, I also got questions of why this office is needed if we have all this data to begin with, because, you know, like we already established, it exists in cyberspace. It floats around everywhere. You know, these statistics that we've come to know that define gun violence are already out there if you look for them. Even if they're not well agreed upon. So I would say those two are the most, are the most popular talking points. But, you know, there were some smaller points that were made about, you know, exactly how in-depth this bill's research would go, and in what areas. Of course, many offices that I talked to, especially Republican ones from rural areas, were interested in, you know, things like suicide, which affects them disproportionately compared to, say, mass shootings, which, like I said, only make up about 2% of gun violence nationwide. And, you know, things like red flag laws, which I've done work on red flag laws before, and it's always been, with this bill, it was sort of a double-edged sword because we would talk about the importance of, say, instituting red flag laws and ensuring that communities across the United States really understand how to take advantage of them, how to access them, and how to make sure that the people that they love are safe. And if they believe that they're putting themselves or others at risk, that they can, you know, do something about that effectively. Many people I know had no idea that these laws existed before, but obviously that comes with another conversation. And that's the whole point of this bill, that it goes deeper and deeper. Many communities do not have positive relationships with law enforcement, and law enforcement is a key aspect of red flag laws. You know, they're the ones who are enforcing these laws and who are the ones who are taking charge in these situations where somebody might be of harm to themselves or others. And that doesn't just mean actually taking away their weapons. You know, that act of ensuring that this person doesn't have access to things that could harm people, but also going even deeper than that. Many officers are not trained in how to de-escalate mental health crises. And we don't want to put people who are untrained into situations that are extremely tense and could result in, you know, an even worse situation than they were to begin with. There's so many layers to this. And and honestly, I felt like the most effective way that we went about this was ensuring that every office knew that we were, you know, especially as young adults who were working within — it was not just me, it was a couple others from other organizations that joined as well. You know, young adults in their twenties who are at the forefront of this movement, that we understood the nuance. And That just because they were Republicans or just because they commonly sat on the sidelines on this issue, that we were going to ignore what gun violence looks like in their communities. And also, like I said, what gun ownership looks like in gun culture. I'm a firm believer that nobody should be denied access to resources and to knowledge about this issue, and that everyone should be equally impacted by positive change when it comes to reducing violence in our country. We shouldn't you know, we shouldn't have to worry that and nobody should have to worry like, hey, I live in a Republican area. I'm not going to get these resources. My representatives or local officials don't support them. Everyone should have equal access if they need it and when they need it. And that's really what we work towards with this bill.
Caitlin: I think your point about the reception that you received from individuals on both sides of the aisle is the perfect exclamation point as to why it's so critical that we have the youth involved in this movement, right/ it's very different when somebody who is, you know, 18, 19, 20, who walks into an office and says, this is something that I'm passionate about, and this is why, and I'm hoping we can make positive change together, regardless of, you know, are you a Republican or a Democrat, something else. It doesn't matter. Right? It's about saving those 100 people a day. Right? And truly, that's that's the beauty of having the youth involved. And I think in the gun violence prevention worlds, there are moments when we see youth shine; and then there are moments when we realize, oh, my goodness, we have not taken full advantage of these brilliant young minds that we have here, and we haven't supported them in all the ways that we need to, and we have an elevated the voices in all the ways that we should. So how do we keep high school and college-aged students involved in this movement?
Jordan: Well, first of all, get them out to vote. That's the biggest thing. You know, I can really say the first year that I was eligible to vote, I was you know, here at Fordham, it was my freshman year. And I called my parents and I said, I need to come home. Like, you know, the primaries are happening today. Like, I need to vote. And I took a train like two hours, Metro-North home to Connecticut, where my parents picked me up and took me to the polling station at like the last minute before they closed. And, you know, I did that because, first of all, I mean, I've always understood the importance of civic engagement, but also because I understood that especially in state and local elections, you know, a lot of people will say like, oh, my vote doesn't matter. I'm not going to vote. Like, you know, especially if, for example, you're a Democrat who lives in an overtly Republican area or vice versa.
Devin: Like Oklahoma.
Jordan: Yes! It matters way more than you think. And honestly, you know, my my representative from my district in Connecticut is Jahana Hayes. And she won by a very narrow margin. And, you know, was my one vote the one that pushed her over the line to victory? No, but, you know, I contributed to that. And so many kids across the nation, first of all, feel and, you know — Gen Z will be, especially in the 2024 election, will be the largest voter bloc, which I 100% believe that, you know, gun sense candidates need to take advantage of. And I'm not just talking about, you know, reaching out to the students and really acknowledging, you know, it's important to, of course, with their fear of especially mass shootings, I think that is the type of gun violence that most strongly affects students and the public consciousness. But like I said, in relating it back to this bill, this bill is about well-roundedness. What concerns me and what my community feels is the most like, you know, relevant form of gun violence to us is not necessarily the same as somebody who lives in, say, Oklahoma, Chicago, California, Montana, Texas, etc.. And if these you know, if these candidates really want to get the youth vote and get them engaged, get them involved, it's first of all, showing them that these candidates are aware of and have a plan for the kinds of gun violence specifically that are, quote unquote, most important to them. You know, the ones that affect them the most commonly. Every day, gun violence, especially in cities, you know, New York. I am lucky enough to live on this campus. I'm in my dorm right now. But, you know, I'm not blind to what happens just outside of Fordham's gates and in and around the city as a whole. And like, even then, it shifts my priorities. So it's important that elected officials understand this and they work towards that in the best way that they can. And that only comes from working very closely with your communities. You really have to engage the youth in a way that is convenient for them. Because I will say that, you know, I work three jobs and I'm also a student. Like, I work like 30 to 40 hours a week on top of school. There's not a lot of time, you know, for me to be out just kind of doing whatever. So all of my time — especially as a college student, and so many of my friends and other students feel the same way — really needs to be intentional. You know, I need to think about what I'm going to do in the next couple of hours if I have it free. So it's, you know, visiting and touring kind of where these students live, and where they are, and ensuring that you're listening to them. Because, you know, we've definitely heard from adults on a lot of issues. But, I mean, I'm not the first one to say it, but I think it's time to turn eyes and ears to the younger people who are going to be taking over. First of all, like I said, becoming the largest voting bloc in the next couple of years, but as well as becoming of age to run as Congressman Frost did. I mean, I admire him so much. And what he does is so incredible. And he's just proof that one after the other, Gen Z and young people will be pushing their way in and taking a seat at this table. So if these elected officials don't want to be voted out in favor of somebody who is, you know, listens and is effective, then they themselves need to listen and become effective. So, I mean, one of my friends, Sam Schwartz, he organized a sit-in outside the Capitol for a whole week. One of his biggest passions, and we talk about it all the time, is mobilizing the youth vote and how it could win Democrats the 2024 election. But, you know, especially in gun violence, which is our sort of, I guess, most prominent issue area because of our experiences. It's an incredible... I think because the issue itself is so, so prevalent. It's something that has so much potential if elected officials are only willing to take a strong stance. You know, I don't think it's enough anymore to sit and offer thoughts and prayers and say, you know, I'm so sorry this happened to you and, you know, we're going to do all that we can. Well, are you? Are you now? Or when are you going to, what is it going to take? Because, you know, people tell me every day, like after Sandy Hook, I thought things would change. Well, me too. And the reason they're not is because, well, people aren't voting as effectively as they should be. And not all of that responsibility falls to elected officials to really push people to vote. People need to have a sort of drive to be civically engaged. They need to want to get involved. You know, you can't really force that onto someone. And that's once again, what we were talking about with this sort of well-roundedness is you need to make sure you're touching on the issue areas that matter the most people, because that's how you get them engaged. But also, you know, elected officials can no longer really sit back and just coast on the coattails of people who are doing effective work. You know, I think especially in more recent years, a lot of gun violence prevention organizations have worked with the more effective members of Congress. And we've seen great effort on their part. But it's time that everybody else took up the mantle too. You step up or you step aside. That's it at the end of the day, and you make room for the people who actually care about this issue. Like Congressman Frost. He's been working in this sphere for probably way longer than I have, and he's doing fantastically. And once again, I admire him so much. And he's a perfect example of what politics could look like if Gen Z and young people really get out there and utilize their potential.
Caitlin: Absolutely. And when you mentioned Congressman Frost initially, I almost interrupted and said, oh, my goodness, I'm such a fan girl for a Congressman Frost. And he really is such a unique individual in the halls there in D.C. And when you speak to him, he's really listening, which is, you would think, pretty obvious for an elected official, but not that's not a lot.
Jordan: Honestly. He's making you feel like he's really — and he is — truly, truly engaged with what you're saying.
Caitlin: But I'm going to pivot on that and say that I'm having a fan girl moment for Jordan Gomez. So just FYI. And if he doesn't hire you, then we would love to hire you. Sorry, Devin, but I'm just throwing that out there. So you are such a shining star in this movement. And thank you. You create a space for us to be optimistic, not only for the work that you're doing, but your peers. And together we know that this will be a better place. And I sit here on this podcast as a mom, too, and I want to know that when I put my daughter on the school bus, or when she goes to the playground, or when she's at the mall, or when she's walking down the street, or whatever it is that all of those are safe spaces for her because that's what we should all want for one another.
Jordan: Absolutely! Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt.
Caitlin: No, no, you're fine.
Jordan: I mean, thank you guys for bringing like, you know, as much as, like, I might be creating a space like you are, too, and it's bringing people like me in, you know, not just because of my lense as a survivor, but because I'm, like, I'm 20 years, old and this is the work that I do. This is what I've dedicated five or six years of my life to at this point. And I wouldn't have the ability to speak on all of this and I wouldn't have the knowledge and experience that I do without moments like this. You know, And speaking to what you said, like, I mean, I was quite young when I went through Sandy Hook and, you know, I saw how it affected my parents. And I think that's one of the biggest things that drives me is, you know, like I do it for students, I do it for people who have experienced what I have so that, you know, and I do it for people who so they hopefully never will. And for people who have experienced things that I never will experience. You know, there's so many angles to this. But I do it for the moms and dads out there, too, because, you know, I saw how it affected my parents. And I mean, I don't need to tell you, but nobody deserves to go through that. Nobody should have to go through that in this day and age. And my family has always been like my biggest supporters. And, you know, they come to my events and like, you know, text me when they see that I've done something kind of out there. And I just, you know, I wouldn't be here without them. And moms and dads are, you know, I would say behind Gen Z, the moms and dads who put themselves out there like this are one of the other biggest forces. I work a lot with Moms Demand. And I can say that they show up every single time. There's always so many of them, and I love that, to be honest.
Caitlin: Well, I'm sure your parents are infinitely proud of you. And that's that's really amazing, right? What a wonderful thing that is. So and let us know along your journey if we can be of any help to you here at Armed with Reason -- on our Substack, through the podcast, through GVPedia, whatever it might be. We're always here, we have your back, and we'd be very happy to support you in whatever ways we can.
Jordan: Thank you, I appreciate it. And thank you once again for having me on today.
Devin: Thank you for joining us.
Jordan Gomes is a junior at Fordham University and currently serves as the Outreach Director for the Newtown Action Alliance, a grassroots gun violence prevention organization created after the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting.
Top image of Jordan Gomes from interview with abc7NY, December, 2022; second image, at White House, July, 2022, via her Twitter.