Armed With Reason: The Podcast - Episode 24
Interview with Abbey Clements, founder of Teachers Unify to End Gun Violence
Abbey Clements speaking at the Democratic National Convention, August 22, 2024
It’s been an eventful summer, to say the least. Supreme Court gun decisions, family vacations, and that whole Presidential election thing. Now, just like all the kids strapping on their backpacks and heading back to school, Armed With Reason — after some summertime retooling — is slowly getting back into the swing of things.
Today we have a brand new podcast, featuring Abbey Clements, Sandy Hook survivor and Executive Director and co-founder of Teachers Unify to End Gun Violence. Our talk with her last week came on the heels of her appearance onstage at the Democratic National Convention.
Throughout this powerful, often emotional discussion, Clements imparts the kind of illuminating, on-the-ground knowledge only a teacher and survivor can really attain.
You can listen to the podcast via our channel on Spotify as well as watch on YouTube, or read the transcription below.
We hope you’ll tune in and let us know not only what you think, but what you’d like to hear more about in the future. And if you are interested in recommending a guest, or even being one yourself, please let us know!
Gun violence survivors speak out at DNC - Abbey Clements at 0:30-1:40
PODCAST TRANSCRIPTION
Caitlin: Hello, everyone. Thanks for joining us here on the Armed With Reason podcast, brought to you by GVPedia. We are back after a summer hiatus, and what a summer it was.
Devin: I mean, thankfully nothing really happened during our summer hiatus, so we're all good.
Caitlin: Yes. Nothing. Nothing big had happened, except the fact that the individuals on the top of the ticket in November have changed, which has led gun violence prevention to become a major topic in the Harris/Walz campaign.
So today here on the podcast, we are joined by Abbey Clements, who, speaking of the ticket, was recently invited to speak at the Democratic National Convention on gun violence. She is the Executive Director and co-founder of Teachers Unify to End Gun Violence, and she has been an elementary school teacher for 32 years. She and her then second graders are survivors of the Sandy Hook School tragedy, which happened on December 14th, 2012. And since that fateful day, Abbey has been a gun violence prevention activist. She is a strategic consultant on gun violence issues for the American Federation of Teachers, or AFT, and a member of the Brady Pac National Advisory Council. And Abbey has been featured in various publications and documentaries, including: Newtown; If I Don't Make It, I Love You; Bullets Into Bells; Marie Claire'; AFT Voices; American Educator; USA Today; and others.
So, Abbey, first of all, I would like to welcome you here to the podcast, and thank you so much for joining us.
Abbey: Thank you so much for having me.
Caitlin: We are starting off our swing back into the podcast realm by focusing a little bit on schools and teachers. We figure that September is a good time to do that. So it was just serendipitous that, you know, we were talking about people in the spring of who might be good to feature in the fall. And your name was, of course, on the forefront of that list. So we're really excited to have you. And I would like to thank you also for traveling to Chicago for the Democratic National Convention, and getting up on that stage and speaking in front of everybody on live TV about your experience at Sandy Hook Elementary School. So I was just wondering if you would tell us what that was like for you.
Abbey: Sure. Thanks for bringing on a teacher. That's actually the reason why my friends and I started Teachers Unify to End Gun Violence. As educators, you don't often hear from us, both in the gun violence prevention movement, but also in education spaces when it comes to gun violence. So, thank you very much. It was an incredible phone call that I received just a few days before the convention, inviting me to participate. When you survive a shooting at such magnitude, your story, or at least the way I feel about it, is sometimes that I know I was there, I know I was, you know, with my students, and obviously how challenging that was. But so many were impacted that day, and there are so many layers of impact. And that that often creates layers of difficulty when it comes to talking about it. And it's much easier for me to talk about advocacy and about what I want to do and what I have been doing than it is about that day in particular. Like, saying the words that I said were very difficult to say. That's what they wanted. That's what they asked for. And all of us. It's actually helpful to hear from the other survivors who spoke on that stage, and at that time, we all were saying how that the story is most important. Is most difficult to say, and what we would've liked to say. But I know why they wanted it to be focused on how how things can change in an instant and how rampant gun violence is in America.
And so it's a tremendous responsibility, and I knew that. I also knew that it would probably be difficult for many people to hear the words that I'm saying, and not just people I don't know, but people I care very deeply about who are impacted way more and in horrible ways. And so that was difficult too because I had to carry that with me and know that, that is probably difficult for people to hear who I care about in that community. When a system like a school district and a small town is impacted by gun violence — doesn't matter if it's 12 years — the tendons that keep us, hold us together are also, can be crippling. So it was very humbling, to say the least. And it wasn't easy in any sense of the word, obviously.
But the other piece of it — besides the knowing that it could be hurtful to survivors from Newtown, which was very difficult for me to carry — but it was also like, why was I invited and not other people? Which survivors often feel that way. There's that feeling of like, why me and I shouldn't be up there, this person should be up there. And it just goes to show how complicated this issue is. And also, just like those feelings of like maybe even imposter syndrome. Like, I'm not really the person. However, the fact that the campaign, we were invited, that I was invited as a teacher has been impacted, to me, really speaks to where we are right now in our country; and the possibility that we could actually listen to teachers and that we can actually talk about gun violence when it comes to teaching and children in schools and communities. So, it was very humbling.
The last thing I'll say about that, unless you have any questions, but when I looked out at all of the people in that filled arena, that it could be easily filled with survivors of gun violence, that we really are a nation of survivors. There is not one American who isn't impacted by this public health crisis. You either know somebody or you're afraid, or you've been impacted, or somebody from your family, somebody who love, or you're afraid that you're going to you have a teacher in your family that they might have to be a human shield. So I was very aware of all of that at that moment.
Caitlin: That sounds like a lot to carry with you up on stage. And then I put my daughter on the school bus this week again, you know, to head back into the classroom, and the emotions that you explained experiencing and the empathy for the people that you love and your community and for the people that you don't even know are why we love teachers, right? And why we trust our kids' teachers. So I just I want you to know that's really powerful and really important. And yes, and we appreciate you very much.
Abbey: Thank you.
Devin: Yeah, and to kind of follow up on the importance of having a teacher on that stage and those voices that are often ignored — and I definitely recognize that. I come from Oklahoma. And like in Oklahoma, it's like, Oh yeah, you can't teach this book, this book, this book, but we want you to have an AR-15 in the classroom. And it's just this mind boggling thing — so you don't trust teachers to teach, but you do want them to have deadly weapons. And it's just, whenever, like, even in deep red Oklahoma, you talk to any teachers and they're like, that's an insane idea, arming teachers. Why would you want to do that? But there we are. There's a lot of speaking for teachers rather than speaking with teachers.
Abbey: Exactly.
Devin: And so I'm curious how you feel being a teacher shaped your ongoing advocacy, and what lessons you've been able to draw from your teaching experience and then applying that to your work on this issue.
Abbey: I love this question. Thank you for it. That day is never far from my mind. And it's not that it consumes the whole day as I'm teaching, but you're just aware that you're in charge of little lives that are in front of you, who are in front of you. And so when I say like, that day is never far from my mind, like the decisions that you make, the decisions that we're forced to make because of a country with too many guns and too easy access to guns is like you're always just wondering what you're going to do, what what would you do if it happened again? Or like teachers across the country who changed on that day to, they started looking at their classrooms in a different way, they're hiding spots a different way. Like teachers who are setting up their rooms right now or starting protocols with their classes right now are worried that their hiding place might not be the right thing. Are we supposed to just really stay there, like they say? Are we supposed to run? Are you supposed to break the glass if you're three flights up and encourage your students to jump out a window?
So it just tells you, you're right, like the juxtaposition of like the responsibility that teachers have every day from 8 to 4, or whatever your contract hours are, and then like how you're you're just not really, your voices are don't really matter when it comes to even like the right curriculum, the way to teach reading that you know is best, or how to talk about or if you're able to talk about hard things like gun violence.
The other thing that your question makes me think about is, as you mentioned, these ludicrous and dangerous ways that we're addressing gun violence instead of taking the required action that we know that we need to do as a country, and that is arming teachers and also subjecting adults and children to trauma-inducing drills. And, you know, you look at the kids in your class every year and you're just like, they get it. They know from a very young age that there's something weird about life, that we allow these guns; like they're constantly stories about guns. You know, they get it right away. And I think they look at us like, why did we let this happen? So the lessons are really from the kids. They grow up quickly realizing we have a problem. They furrow their eyebrows like they're super confused, as they should be. And I think the onus of this problem often lays on the shoulders of teachers and parents, aunts and uncles, grandparents who don't know what to say.
Devin: Yeah. And to kind of go on that for a couple points. One, in terms of the responsibility that teachers are put under, like you're basically expected to be soldiers-slash-police-slash-first aid along with teaching, and you're getting basically paid half of what teachers should be paid regardless. And then it's like, oh yeah, and here we expect you to be able to do all this other stuff that like we train soldiers for months and months to be able go into that; and that's a choice that those soldiers make. Teachers didn't make that choice. It was like, oh, now you need to do this.
And in terms of the drills as well — five or so years ago, we at GVPedia held a conference in Denver, and during that we had a bunch of advocates, survivors, and from across country and including a bunch of students, some from Parkland, others from schools that had been directly impacted. And during the morning session, the fire alarm went off. And at the same time — and this was like in the basement of a hotel — the air conditioning kicked on with like a boom, boom, boom, boom, boom sort of thing. And it was, well, it was horrible, like disrupting and such, but was interesting because the students had been at Parkland were fine, or like kind of disassociated. But the students had been through active shooting drills like basically collapsed, and we had to bring in like therapy dogs and such, and it was a whole thing.
And like both responses in a way, just indicate how much something's wrong there, because like fire alarms do go off and such. And having that sort of reaction that's now been trained in some schools, like it's just broken in a fundamental way. I was thankfully like through high school and into college and didn't really have to deal with active shooting drills. But we have an entire generation of students, and particularly when they do the realistic school shooting drills where they have replica guns and all that stuff, like, we're traumatizing a generation even before we get to the massive trauma of gun violence, not only at schools, but in many of these communities where kids walk to school every day and there's a likelihood they'll hear gunshots and such. So that's a rather depressing segway into things are really messed up.
Abbey: Very. Couldn't agree more.
Caitlin: Yes. And Abbey, to echo what you said about your students, students in general, looking at you like, What is up with this? How did we create this world?! My daughter is nine and she has gun violence prevention figured out, and she says things so matter of factly, and I'm like, yes, what you said makes total sense. And that should be how we move forward. But it's just not realistic, unfortunately, in the world that has been created for them, which is a horrifying feeling as a parent, or as somebody who looks after children, for sure. So you have created, founded an organization called Teachers Unify to End Gun Violence. And if you could tell us a little bit about what the organization does, we would love to learn more.
Abbey: Thank you. Yes. So after the tragedy in Newtown, probably a few short months after, I started entering into what I had no idea was going to be, like so much of my life. I knew I needed to do something. And our daughter was the trailblazer in the family. As a 16 year old. She was in lockdown in physics class in Newtown High School, and for a moment didn't know if my students and I were okay. And she really led the family, and I knew I was going to follow her. I just didn't know, like, I had to wait a little while. And then once I was in it, I was in it. And this was just what I did. It was just school, and weekends, and then my kids, and then gun violence prevention. And I just loved the challenge. I don't know, I think love is the right word, just there's a, you know, I always say the word, there's like that huge responsibility that, like, if I survive this thing that I was going to try and do something about it. Also realizing where we are in this country, and that's going to be an uphill battle.
And I really enjoyed my time as a Moms Demand Action volunteer leader. For many years, I was involved in their their survivor network. I'm still involved in Survivor Network. And it's, you know, so a well-oiled machine, and they have lots of resources and ways to develop as a volunteer leader, which was really great. And it was a way to combine, I think, my teaching skills and my passion for this issue.
But all along, the one thing I was missing was working with teachers, and kind of asking along the way to different organizations and folks who are involved in leadership in those organizations, like, Hey, you should start like a teacher arm. And they all thought it was a good idea, but didn't probably had the bandwidth to do it.
And then there's yet another school shooting on November 30th of 2021, this time in Oxford, Michigan. And I was texting with two of my activist survivor friends — one of whom was a surviovor from Parkland and the other is a New York City activist. And we were texting the way that you text with your friends and family after these heinous mass shootings happened over and over. Oh my God, it's happening again! Where did the gun come from? Like, how is this even happening? How are we allowing this? Except this time we were talking about the teachers. Where are the teachers? How come we never hear from the teachers? We never hear from the teachers. And I just said, like I've been waiting for a teacher organization for teachers by teachers on gun violence prevention for years. Do you want to start one? And they just said yes. They didn't even wait. And so we launched Teachers Unify that day. And it's been almost three years.
Our mission is to empower educators and para-educators, librarians, professors, allies, supporters to demand that communities are safe from gun gun violence, including schools. Because teachers obviously are unique in that we may not feel comfortable standing outside of our grocery store or school grounds with a sign. And if you're not tenured, you might be even more worried. You might live in a state that you can't even have that or possibly don't even have a union. So very aware of like the challenges of educators speaking up about their fears and realities of gun violence and gun violence prevention in their schools and communities. And we just really, that is just the mission to have, you know, to help millions of educators to start raising their voices and having us be invited to a seat at the table, much like I was at the convention where we they want to hear.
And every time I meet with legislators, they go, Oh, we should have had teachers here before. Thank you so much for coming! Like, it's not that hard. You just pay for a sub. You could do it, you know. There are ways to get a teacher to a meeting. So that's Teachers Unify.
Devin: Awesome. So one of the primary things at GVPedia we focus on is countering disinformation. So I'm curious, what are some of the most common false talking points that you encounter in your advocacy?
Abbey: Well, definitely, I mean, the ones that we've talked about already, that drills will keep us safe. And we we know there's hard evidence to show the contrary, that there's actually no evidence that proves that these drills that we're forcing kids and adults to endure — and also to participate in, running through the halls, like you're saying, knocking loudly on the doors, yelling fake blood, fake situations — there's no evidence that that actually saves lives. So that's a big problem there.
And then arming teachers, the fact that over half the country allows teachers to be armed in some capacity is terrifying, and dangerous. The fact that we're allowing teachers to be armed is just incredibly ludicrous. It's dangerous. It goes against everything that a teacher stands for and teaches about. So that's obviously disinformation that we should just — it's the "good guy with a gun" stopping the bad guy with a gun, which which we know is also a fallacy. And that guns keep us safer — we know that when there is a gun in the home or in the classroom, that it actually makes us unsafe.
After Sandy Hook, you know, they changed some of the ways that we, are physically in a building like, you know, doors that lock in different ways and bulletproof glass. But whenever I'm trying to open a door or I think about a firearm locked in some box, I always think — it's kind of a cynical, can't help it, I'm like, Oh, hold on one second. Let me just I just try to unlock the door. Let me just let me just get to this box and find that key. It's just completely — not that I want it to be strapped on me and loaded — but, this idea that that you can actually save the day with a gun when you've got little kids all around, you can't even remember where I put my papers five minutes ago. But I'm going to, you know, make sure that I have a very clear idea where my key is with a loaded firearm somewhere.
And I think the last thing about disinformation that, you know, we have this idea that these mass shootings or these incidences happen in slow motion. There's like that Hollywood, everything kind of slows down. You're jumping over the couch, and you pull out your firearm, and you only shoot your target — when even police we know only shoot their target I think it's like less than 30% of the time. So I think that's like that hero fallacy that you're going to be able to, you know, protect your students, but how do you know how many there are? How do you know? Because I think the chaos is what people don't really understand. You know, you tell a story about what happens. So after something happens, you tell the story. And it sounds very linear, because of course you know the outcome. So you're telling it from the perspective of like now we know. So here's what happened now that we know everything that happened. But while it's happening, you have no idea how many people are involved, where it's happening, if it's safe to leave the premises, like where you are.
So I don't know how we chip away at that, but I think that's a big one. And I think once we can figure that out, I think it'll help change the culture. It might take a really long time, but it's one that needs to be taken care of for sure.
Caitlin: Well, we know in school shooting situations, unfortunately sometimes the shooter is a student or a recently graduated student. And to think about the position you're putting a teacher into, even if you knew, right? Like this is it, this is the person who's running around harming people in my school. We're going to shoot a former student? Like what? That to me is, like you said, it is completely against what teaching stands for, right? So that has always stood out in my mind is there's a myriad of reasons that arming teachers is a bad idea. But that to me is such terrible situation to think that it's appropriate to put a teacher in.
Devin: Yeah. And even if it's not a former student, like there tends to be a lack of recognition that taking a life, even if it's in pure self-defense, is a major thing. Like not everybody in that moment is willing to kill somebody else. And they're just seems to be this sort of devaluation of human life. or it's like, Oh, that's just a bad guy, it's not like another human being. Just a failure of recognition.
And again, like, it's expecting teachers to be soldiers, and we train soldiers for months and months and months to be just instinctively shooting targets. Like the military trains that sort of hesitation or seeing the target as another human being out of you. And we're expecting — or not "we" —but some people across the country are expecting teachers to be able to do that automatically, and also thinking that that sort of instinct is a good thing at all -- which it's just a bizarre framework in addition to all the falsehoods that lie behind it.
Caitlin: Abbey, how would you say your advocacy has evolved over the past, over a decade now?
Abbey: Well, since, focusing on educators, like, it kind of helps you narrow your vision and focus. And it's not easy, but I always have to remember that that's what our mission is, and this is what we're focused on. So I have to kind of train myself, because I'm used to kind of talking about gun violence as this giant like thing, which of course it is, but just really focusing it that way. So that's how one way it's changed.
And I think, just for me, I've just met the most incredible people over these past 12 years. Survivors, activists, legislators who have promised, looked me in the eye and promise me they always work on this issue; and just kind of drawing from their strength, and knowing that this may not change and likely won't change in my lifetime, but it's those small victories that we have to harness and really be proud of, and and just keep that momentum going even when it seems like it's hopeless. Because it isn't.
Devin: And that kind of go off of that for a moment, like the 10 to 12 years is a long time. And I started my advocacy after, Sandy Hook as well. And in that time, I've seen a lot of people who used to be heavily involved in preventing gun violence take a step back from the issue due to burnout. And this seems to be a particularly big issue in politically conservative states where the gun lobby continuously in grinding forward, getting their guns-everywhere agenda enacted takes a large toll because it just feels like defeat after defeat after defeat after defeat at the state and local level. So how would you recommend preventing burnout?
Abbey: Well, I am certainly no expert on this, and I feel that I've seen people come and go in the movement and think, Oh, but we need that person. And but also understanding the heaviness of this. It does take a toll. And now that I'm doing this full time, actually taking a leave of absence from teaching this year so that I can, work on Teachers Unify full time. I think you just have to carve out time to allow yourself to process when things go particularly wrong, when there's yet another shooting or a bill fails. And just allow a little bit of space. I feel like we're always having to respond fast — and I have to work on this myself, I always want to respond — but it's okay to step away for a little bit.
And it's also okay to step away and say, you know, ask somebody to step in for a little bit. So those things are really important. And then the other thing — and I'm not sure I know how to really work on that fun piece because I've always said like, laughing a little bit, that gun violence prevention can be fun. We can and we enjoy one another when we do these hard things. I mean, the bond I think that we had, just even at the DNC backstage with folks who I was on that stage with, was something and it's really special. And how do you have that, like to be with people who are working on something so hard and have this common passion. So I think to realize, like, you know, this is really hard, but like, these are kind of like my family and friends, and that's how I feel about it. But learning how to step away is definitely a challenge for me, and I do need to to practice that more.
Caitlin: Might be an odd time to think about stepping away, since now you've taken a leave of absence to teaching, but...
Abbey: Now I'm like, okay, I have a three-day weekend. How much time am I really going to not do this? I think like that because I'm so used to just doing it all the time day, I mean like at night and on the weekends. But now I can actually have some parameters and say, like I'm going from 7 to 11, I'm not going to do this. So that might be a really good thing for my mental health, because a lot of us, a lot of survivors are doing, I mean and other advocates, they're gonna have a full time job and then they're doing this. And so, you know, you're trying not to mix them, but they do. And then you're feeling badly because you're not giving this your all. You're feeling badly because you're not giving that your all. But we can only do so much. And we have to give give ourselves some grace.
Caitlin: Yes, absolutely. And that's a, a very strong trait of women in general, I think, regardless of what you're doing. So it's hard to shed that. So, alright, Abbey, if you can tell our listeners where they might be able to find you or your organization on social media or your website, anything you'd like to share? We would love for you to put it out here.
Abbey: Thank you so much! Yes. Please follow us. Our website is, teachersunify.org. And we're most active on Instagram, and it's @teachersunify. But we would love for you to to join our efforts. There's a survey on our website, and it's for anybody, so we could keep in touch with you and we can, you know, send your newsletters and invite you to things. That would be awesome.
Caitlin: Absolutely. Devin. Any other thoughts or questions for Abbey?
Devin: I think that's it for now. Was there anything that you felt we should ask and we can address here at the end, or...
Abbey: I just really want to thank you for inviting me and more broadly, an educator on here, to talk about gun violence and gun violence prevention, especially at the start of a new school year. I really appreciate that, so much and looking forward to spreading some resources out there. And I really appreciate all that you do and all the voices that you're uplifting in your podcast. So thank you for having me.
Devin: Thank you for joining us.
Caitlin: Yeah, that means a lot. And whether you're taking a leave of absence or not this year, we know that all of the students lives that you've impacted in the past and that you'll impact moving forward. I don't know why I keep getting so emotional about this. I think it's because of my daughter. It's just so special that you took a tragedy, something that could be, I'm sure on some days, even now, still is is crippling. But that you've been able to make such a profound impact on the movement, not only for teachers, but for your students, for parents, for anybody else who is participating in the educator world at all. We know that any impact that we can make in gun violence prevention in one facet of gun violence prevention, it ripples throughout. So, you're making such a great difference, and we will always be appreciative of you for that. So thank you.
Abbey: Oh, thank you so much. That's all kind. Thank you.
Caitlin: Thank you. All right, well, enjoy your three-day weekend.
Abbey: Thank you. You guys too. You guys too. Thanks so much, guys. Appreciate it.
Abbey Clements
Photos courtesy of Abbey Clements.
Great podcast